Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates/Unsuccessful retrieval
From FAIRMormon
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| Finding the plates | A FAIR Analysis of Wikipedia: Mormonism and Wikipedia/Golden plates A work by a collaboration of authors (Link to Wikipedia article here)Golden plates, Unsuccessful retrieval attempts
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Receiving the plates |
Note:
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An analysis of the Wikipedia article "Golden plates" Updated 9/21/2011
Reviews of previous revisions of this section
- December 2009—
A review of this section as it appeared in Wikipedia in December 2009. (Link)
Section review
Unsuccessful retrieval attempts
From the Wikipedia article:
According to Smith's followers, Smith said he took the plates from the box, put them on the ground, and covered the box with the stone to protect the other treasures it contained.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Knight (1833) , p. 2 (account by Joseph Knight, Sr., a loyal life-long follower who had worked with Smith in treasure expeditions); Smith (1853) , p. 85 (account by Smith's mother, saying this occurred on Smith's second visit to the hill); Salisbury (1895) , p. 14 (account of Smith's sister, saying this occurred on Smith's third visit to the hill, but that it happened prior to their brother Alvin's death, which was in November 1823); Cowdery (1835b) , p. 197 (account by Smith's second-in-command Oliver Cowdery, stating that when Smith was looking in the box for other artifacts, he hadn't yet removed the plates).
FAIR's analysis:
- Violates Wikipedia: Citing sources off-site— There is either no citation to support the statement or the citation given is incorrect.
Violated by COgden —Diff: off-site
Joseph Knight's statement regarding "some fancied or imaginary treasure" has been portrayed by the wiki editor as "the other treasures [the box] contained." From Joseph Knight's account:
...he had laid them down with the view of securing some fancied or imaginary treasure that remained.
- Violates Wikipedia: Citing sources off-site— There is either no citation to support the statement or the citation given is incorrect.
Violated by COgden —Diff: off-site
The first cited source Knight (1833) , p. 2 says nothing about Joseph Knight being a "loyal life-long follower who had worked with Smith in treasure expeditions." In fact, Knight states that Joseph "had heard people tell of such things." From the cited source, p. 2 (original spelling preserved):
From thence he went to the hill where he was informed the Record was and found no trouble for it appeard plain as tho he was acquainted with the place it was so plain in the vision that he had of the place. He went and found the place and opened it and found a plane Box. He oncovered it and found the Book and took it out and laid [it] Down By his side and thot he would Cover the place over again thinking there might be something else here. But he was told to take the Book and go right away. And after he had Covered the place he turned round to take the Book and it was not there and he was astonished that the Book was gone. He thot he would look in the place again and see if it had not got Back again. He had heard people tell of such things. And he opened the Box and Behold the Book was there. He took hold of it to take it out again and Behold he Could not stur the Book any more then he Could the mountin. He exclaimed “why Cant I stur this Book?” And he was answered, “you cant have it now.” Joseph says, “when can I have it?” The answer was the 22nt Day of September next if you Bring the right person with you. Joseph says,” who is the right Person?” The answer was “your oldest Brother.”
- For a detailed response, see: Joseph Smith/Money digging
From the Wikipedia article:
Nevertheless, the accounts say, when Smith looked back at the ground after closing the box, the plates had once again disappeared into it.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Smith (1853) , p. 85 (account by Smith's mother); Knight (1833) , p. 2 (account by Smith's life-long friend Joseph Knight, Sr.); Salisbury (1895) , p. 14 (account of Smith's sister).
FAIR's analysis:
- From the cited source Knight (1833) , p. 2:
And after he had Covered the place he turned round to take the Book and it was not there and he was astonished that the Book was gone. He thot he would look in the place again and see if it had not got Back again. He had heard people tell of such things.
- For a detailed response, see: Joseph Smith/Money digging
From the Wikipedia article:
According to two non-believing Palmyra residents, when Smith once again raised the stone and attempted to retrieve the plates, Smith saw something in the box like a toad that grew larger and struck him to the ground.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Chase (1833) , p. 242 (account of Palmyra resident Willard Chase, who heard the story from Smith's father in 1827 and was a non-believer); Saunders (1884a) (account of Benjamin Saunders, a sympathetic non-believer who heard the story from Joseph Smith in 1827); Saunders (1893) (account of Orson Saunders, a non-believer who heard it from Benjamin Saunders).
FAIR's analysis:
- Correct, per cited sources
- For a detailed response, see: The Hurlbut affidavits
From the Wikipedia article:
Although Smith's followers do not mention a toad-like creature, they agree with several non-believers that Smith said he was stricken by a supernatural force that hurled him to the ground as many as three times.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Writing with Smith's assistance for a church periodical, Oliver Cowdery said that Smith was stricken three times with an ever increasing force, persisting after the second blow because he thought the plates were held by the power of an "enchantment" (like hidden-treasure stories he had heard) that could be overcome by physical exertion Cowdery (1835b) , pp. 197–98. Smith's mother said he was stricken by a force but did not say how many times Smith (1853) , p. 86. Willard Chase said Smith was stricken at least twice Chase (1833) , p. 242. Fayette Lapham, who said he heard the story in about 1830 from Smith's father, said Smith was stricken three times with ever-increasing force Lapham (1870) , p. 306. Two neighbors who heard the story from Smith in Harmony in the late 1820s said Smith was knocked down three times Lewis (Lewis) , p. 1. Smith himself said he made three unsuccessful attempts to take the plates that day, but he did not mention his being stricken Smith (1832) , p. 3. Smith's sister Katharine stated that three times, "he felt a pressure pushing hom [him] away" Salisbury (1895) , p. 14. David Whitmer said that the angel struck Smith three times with such force that he was knocked off the hill onto the surrounding plain and had to reascend it Whitmer (1875) .
FAIR's analysis:
- Correct, per cited sources
From the Wikipedia article:
Disconcerted by his inability to obtain the plates, Smith said he briefly wondered whether his experience had been a "dreem of Vision" [sic].
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Smith (1832) , p. 3.
FAIR's analysis:
- According to the cited source:
I immediately went to the place and found where the plates was deposited as the angel of the Lord had commanded me and straightway made three attempts to get them and then being excedingly frightened I supposed it had been a dreem of Vision but when I consid[e]red I knew that it was not therefore I cried unto the Lord in the agony of my soul why can I not obtain them... off-site
- For a detailed response, see: Primary sources/First Vision accounts/1832
From the Wikipedia article:
Concluding that it was not, he said he prayed asking why he had been barred from taking the plates.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Smith (1832) , p. 3; Knight (1833) , p. 2 (saying Smith exclaimed, "why Cant I stur this Book?"); Cowdery (1835b) , p. 198 (saying that Smith exclaimed, without premeditation, "Why can I not obtain this book?"); Salisbury (1895) , p. 14 (saying Smith asked, "Lord, what have I done, that I can not get these records?")
FAIR's analysis:
- Correct, per cited sources
From the Wikipedia article:
In response to his question, Smith said the angel appeared and told him he could not receive the plates because he "had been tempted of the advisary (sic) and saught (sic) the Plates to obtain riches and kept not the commandments that I should have".
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Smith (1832) , p. 3; Knight (1833) , p. 2 (saying the angel said "you cant have it now", to which Smith responded, "when can I have it?" and the angel said "the 22nt Day of September next if you Bring the right person with you".); Cowdery (1835b) , pp. 197–98 (stating that although Smith "supposed his success certain", his failure to keep the "commandments" led to his inability to obtain them). In Smith's 1838 account he said the angel had already told him he would not receive the plates for another four years Smith (1838a) , p. 7. Smith's brother, who was 11 at the time, said "upon his return [he] told us that in consequence of his not obeying strictly the commandments which the angel had given him, he could not obtain the record until four years from that time" Smith (1883) , p. 10. Smith's sister Katharine (who was 10 at the time) said that Moroni told Smith, "You have not obeyed the commandments as you were commanded to; you must obey His commandments in every particular. You were not to lay them out of your hands until you had them in safe keeping" Salisbury (1895) , p. 14.
FAIR's analysis:
- Correct, per cited sources
From the Wikipedia article:
According to Smith's followers, Smith had also broken the angel's commandment "not to lay the plates down, or put them for a moment out of his hands",
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Smith (1853) , p. 85; Knight (1833) , p. 2.
FAIR's analysis:
- Violates Wikipedia: Citing sources off-site— There is either no citation to support the statement or the citation given is incorrect.
The reason for not setting the plates down is given in the source, but not by the wiki editor. Here is the Knight quote in context:
He kneeled down and asked the Lord why the Record had been taken from him; upon which the angel of the Lord appeared to him, and told him that he had not done as he had been commanded, for in a former revelation he had been commanded not to lay the plates down, or put them for a moment out of his hands, until he got into the house and deposited them in a chest or trunk, having a good lock and key, and, contrary to this, he had laid them down with the view of securing some fancied or imaginary treasure that remained. (emphasis added)
From the Wikipedia article:
and according to a non-believer, Smith said "I had forgotten to give thanks to God" as required by the angel.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Saunders (1893) (statement of Orson Saunders, who heard the account from his uncle Benjamin Saunders, who heard it from Smith in 1827).
FAIR's analysis:
FAIR WIKI EDITORS: Check sources
From the Wikipedia article:
Smith said the angel instructed him to return the next year, on September 22, 1824, with the "right person": his older brother Alvin.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Knight (1833) , p. 2 (account of Joseph Knight, Sr., a life-long follower of Smith); Lapham (1870) , p. 307 (account of Fayette Lapham, who became a skeptic after hearing the story from Smith's father in 1830); Salisbury (1895) , p. 14 (account of Smith's sister Katharine).
FAIR's analysis:
- Correct, per cited sources
- From Joseph Knight,
Joseph says, “when can I have it?” The answer was the 22nt Day of September next if you Bring the right person with you. Joseph says,” who is the right Person?” The answer was “your oldest Brother.”
From the Wikipedia article:
Alvin died in November 1823, and Smith returned to the hill in 1824 to ask what he should do.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Salisbury (1895) , p. 14. Smith (1853) , p. 85 (account of Smith's mother). About the time of the scheduled September 22, 1824 meeting with the angel that Alvin was to attend, there were rumors in Palmyra that Alvin's body had been dug up and dissected. To quell these rumors, Joseph's father brought witnesses to exhume the body three days after Joseph's reported meeting with the angel (September 25) and then ran a notice in a local newspaper stating that the body remained undisturbed—except, of course, by Smith, Sr. and the witnesses. Smith (1824) .
FAIR's analysis:
- Violates Wikipedia: Neutral Point-of-View off-site— All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.
We are unsure why the wiki editors decided to include the story of Alvin's body in the footnote, and what exactly this has to do with the "Golden plates." - Correct, per cited sources
According to Joseph Knight,
But before September Came his oldest Brother Died. Then he was Disapinted and did not [k]now what to do. But when the 22nt Day of September Came he went to the place and the personage appeard and told him he Could not have it now. But the 22nt Day of September nex he mite have the Book if he Brot with him the right person. Joseph says, “who is the right Person?” The answer was you will know.
From the Wikipedia article:
Smith said he was told to return the following year (1825) with the "right person"—although the angel did not tell Smith who that person might be.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Knight (1833) , p. 2; Salisbury (1895) , p. 14 (saying the angel said, "You will know her when you see her.").
FAIR's analysis:
- chase (1833) , p. 243 states, "On asking who might be the man, he was answered that he would know him when he saw him."
From the Wikipedia article:
For the visit on September 22, 1825, Smith may have attempted to bring his treasure-hunting associate Samuel T. Lawrence,
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Chase (1833) , p. 243; Knight (1833) , p. 3 (saying Lawrence was a seer and had been to the hill and knew what was there); Harris (1859) , p. 164 (identifying Samuel T. Lawrence as a practitioner of crystal gazing).
FAIR's analysis:
- Violates Wikipedia: No Original Research off-site— Do not use unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position.
Violated by COgden —Diff: off-site
The wiki editor has moved beyond the information contained in the cited source. Willard Chase said that Joseph took Samuel Lawrence to the hill—he does not say that it occurred on September 22, 1825. From chase (1833) , p. 243
The spirit then commanded him to come again, in just one year, and bring a man with him. On asking who might be the man, he was answered that he would know him when he saw him. Joseph believed that one Samuel T. Lawrence was the man alluded to by the spirit, and went with him to a singular looking hill, in Manchester, and shewed him where the treasure was.
From the Wikipedia article:
but eventually, Smith determined after looking into his seer stone that the "right person" was Emma Hale, his future wife.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Knight (1833) , p. 2; Salisbury (1895) , p. 15 (saying that Smith "knew when he saw her that she was the one to go with him to get the records").
FAIR's analysis:
- Violates Wikipedia: No Original Research off-site— Do not use unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position.
Violated by COgden —Diff: off-site
The wiki editor is performing original research by determining which of the second-hand accounts is correct. Note that a different second-hand source, chase (1833) , p. 243, states, "On asking who might be the man, he was answered that he would know him when he saw him."
From the Wikipedia article:
Smith said that he visited the hill "at the end of each year" for four years after the first visit in 1823,
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Smith (1838a) , p. 7.
FAIR's analysis:
- Correct, per cited sources
From the Wikipedia article:
but there is no record of him being in the vicinity of Palmyra between January 1826 and January 1827 when he returned to New York from Pennsylvania with his new wife.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Smith (1853) , pp. 99–100.
FAIR's analysis:
- Violates Wikipedia: Neutral Point-of-View off-site— All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing fairly, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources.
Violated by John Foxe —Diff: off-site
"Smith said...but there is no record..." The wiki editor is implying that Joseph Smith was a liar based upon an absence of evidence that proves that he was in the area at a specific time. This was hidden under an edit summary that claimed that these were "stylistic tweaks."
From the Wikipedia article:
In January 1827, Smith visited the hill and then told his parents that the angel had severely chastised him for not being "engaged enough in the work of the Lord",
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Smith (1853) , p. 99.
FAIR's analysis:
- Correct, per cited sources
From the Wikipedia article:
which may have meant that he had missed his annual visit to the hill in 1826.
Wikipedia footnotes:
- Smith's father is cited as stating Smith was late one year and missed the date for visiting the hill, and therefore was chastised by the angel Lapham (1870) , p. 307.
FAIR's analysis:
- Violates Wikipedia: No Original Research off-site— Do not use unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position.
The statement that Joseph may have "missed his annual visit" is original research by the wiki editor. - Violates Wikipedia: Citing sources off-site— There is either no citation to support the statement or the citation given is incorrect.
Violated by John Foxe —Diff: off-site
The second-hand source does not indicate that Joseph may have "missed his annual visit to the hill in 1826." The source states that when Joseph went to the hill, that he "had not been punctual in following [the angel's] directions." - From the cited source,
The year passed over before Joseph was aware of it, so time passed by; but he went to the place of deposit, where the same man appeared again, and said he had not been punctual in following his directions, and, in consequence, he could not have the article yet.
References
| Wikipedia references for "Golden Plates" |
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Further reading
Mormonism and Wikipedia
Articles on this subject
- For an overview on this subject, see
- Mormonism and Wikipedia: The Church History That "Anyone Can Edit", Roger Nicholson, Interpreter: A Journal of Mormon Scripture, Vol. 1, 2012. 151-190
- "Wiki Wars: In battle to define beliefs, Mormons and foes wage battle on Wikipedia", Michael De Groote, Deseret News, January 30, 2011.
- "Something Wiki This Way Comes: How collaborative editing is changing the face of online LDS apologetics", R. Scott Lloyd, Church News, August 8, 2011.
- Something Wiki This Way Comes: How Collaborative Editing is Changing the Face of Online LDS Apologetics. A close look at the challenges and history of editing LDS topics in a Wikipedia. This is a 2011 FAIR conference presentation by Roger Nicholson, in PDF format.
FAIR's Wikipedia Article Reviews
- A FAIR Analysis of Wikipedia article "Martin Harris" (Link)
- A FAIR Analysis of Wikipedia article "Oliver Cowdery" (Link)
- A FAIR Analysis of Wikipedia article "First Vision"—
Current review is based upon Wikipedia revision dated 9/17/2011. This article has undergone moderate improvements in its use of sources since our last review. The article still contains a substantial amount of original research based upon primary sources, with the intent to disprove the vision and highlight perceived discrepancies between vision accounts. Believing scholars are labeled "apologists" in an attempt to diminish their credibility. (Link) - A FAIR Analysis of Wikipedia article "Joseph Smith"—
Current review is based upon Wikipedia revision dated 9/3/2011. This article has undergone substantial improvements in its use of sources since our initial review in 2009. Most of the citations are now accurately represented. (Link) - A FAIR Analysis of Wikipedia article "Golden plates"—
Current review is based upon Wikipedia revision dated 9/21/2011. This article has undergone only minor improvements in its use of sources since our last review. The article contains a large amount of original research on the part of the wiki editors. (Link) - A FAIR Analysis of Wikipedia article "Three Witnesses"—
Current review is based upon Wikipedia revision dated 9/28/2011. This article has been constructed in such a way as to discredit the witnesses by emphasizing any perceived contradictions in their various statements regarding their encounter with the gold plates. (Link)
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