https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?action=history&feed=atom&title=The_Great_Apostasy 2026-10-16T18:09:20Z Revision history for this page on the wiki MediaWiki 1.41.0 https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=The_Great_Apostasy&diff=266931&oldid=prev 2026-10-06T14:09:56Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:09, 6 October 2026</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l264">Line 264:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 264:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Greek word translated “church” is &#039;&#039;ekklesia&#039;&#039;, meaning an assembly or congregation. While the word can certainly refer to an organized body of believers, early Christian sources sometimes understood the Church in a much broader sense. For example, the early second-century [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shepherd_of_Hermas &#039;&#039;Pastor of Hermas&#039;&#039;] declares that the Church “was created first of all . . . and for her sake was the world made.”&lt;ref&gt;&#039;&#039;Pastor of Hermas, Vision 2.4&#039;&#039;, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., &#039;&#039;Ante-Nicene Fathers&#039;&#039;, vol. 2 (Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885), 305.&lt;/ref&gt; Likewise, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_Clement &#039;&#039;2 Clement&#039;&#039;] states that “the books of the Apostles declare that the Church belongs not to the present, but existed from the beginning.”&lt;ref&gt;&#039;&#039;2 Clement&#039;&#039; 14:2, in Robert M. Grant, ed., &#039;&#039;The Apostolic Fathers&#039;&#039;, vol. 2 (Thomas Nelson &amp; Sons, 1964–1968), 126.&lt;/ref&gt;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Greek word translated “church” is &#039;&#039;ekklesia&#039;&#039;, meaning an assembly or congregation. While the word can certainly refer to an organized body of believers, early Christian sources sometimes understood the Church in a much broader sense. For example, the early second-century [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shepherd_of_Hermas &#039;&#039;Pastor of Hermas&#039;&#039;] declares that the Church “was created first of all . . . and for her sake was the world made.”&lt;ref&gt;&#039;&#039;Pastor of Hermas, Vision 2.4&#039;&#039;, in Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, eds., &#039;&#039;Ante-Nicene Fathers&#039;&#039;, vol. 2 (Christian Literature Publishing Co., 1885), 305.&lt;/ref&gt; Likewise, [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Epistle_of_Clement &#039;&#039;2 Clement&#039;&#039;] states that “the books of the Apostles declare that the Church belongs not to the present, but existed from the beginning.”&lt;ref&gt;&#039;&#039;2 Clement&#039;&#039; 14:2, in Robert M. Grant, ed., &#039;&#039;The Apostolic Fathers&#039;&#039;, vol. 2 (Thomas Nelson &amp; Sons, 1964–1968), 126.&lt;/ref&gt;</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This conception is consistent with New Testament passages that describe God's people in heavenly and eternal terms. Paul writes that God “hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:3–4), while Hebrews describes believers as having come “unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,” and “to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven” (Hebrews 12:22–23). On this understanding, the Church is not simply an earthly administrative institution<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. It </del>encompasses God's covenant people and the heavenly assembly of the faithful. Consequently, even if Christ's organized Church were to disappear from the earth for a period of time, the broader reality of the Church would not thereby cease to exist.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This conception is consistent with New Testament passages that describe God's people in heavenly and eternal terms. Paul writes that God “hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:3–4), while Hebrews describes believers as having come “unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,” and “to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven” (Hebrews 12:22–23). On this understanding, the Church is not simply an earthly administrative institution<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">; it </ins>encompasses God's covenant people and the heavenly assembly of the faithful. Consequently, even if Christ's organized Church were to disappear from the earth for a period of time, the broader reality of the Church would not thereby cease to exist.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>More importantly, the language concerning the “gates of hell” does not necessarily refer to the institutional Church&#039;s survival. The Greek word translated “hell” in Matthew 16:18 is &#039;&#039;Hades&#039;&#039; (ᾍδης), which ordinarily denotes the realm of the dead rather than the place of final punishment. In ancient Jewish and Christian thought, Hades was understood as the realm in which the dead awaited resurrection. Tertullian, writing around A.D. 200, for example, stated that “all souls . . . are shut up within Hades.”&lt;ref&gt;Tertullian, &#039;&#039;On the Soul&#039;&#039; 58, in Roberts, Donaldson, and Coxe, eds., &#039;&#039;Ante-Nicene Fathers&#039;&#039;, 3:234–35.&lt;/ref&gt;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>More importantly, the language concerning the “gates of hell” does not necessarily refer to the institutional Church&#039;s survival. The Greek word translated “hell” in Matthew 16:18 is &#039;&#039;Hades&#039;&#039; (ᾍδης), which ordinarily denotes the realm of the dead rather than the place of final punishment. In ancient Jewish and Christian thought, Hades was understood as the realm in which the dead awaited resurrection. Tertullian, writing around A.D. 200, for example, stated that “all souls . . . are shut up within Hades.”&lt;ref&gt;Tertullian, &#039;&#039;On the Soul&#039;&#039; 58, in Roberts, Donaldson, and Coxe, eds., &#039;&#039;Ante-Nicene Fathers&#039;&#039;, 3:234–35.&lt;/ref&gt;</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> </table>

SpencerMarsh https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=The_Great_Apostasy&diff=266930&oldid=prev 2026-10-06T14:05:31Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 14:05, 6 October 2026</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l8">Line 8:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 8:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In recent years, there has been a new kind of critic of Latter-day Saint Apostasy narratives. A strain of Latter-day Saint scholars has argued that Latter-day Saint Apostasy narratives suffer from intellectual deficiencies and pastoral sensitivity. They have been sensitive to notions, promoted by the likes of B.H. Roberts, Joseph Fielding Smith, and James E. Talmage, that the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages Middle Ages] represented an age of spiritual rot and intellectual imbecility. They have also argued that the Lord may not have intended to restore the Church of Jesus Christ, but rather to restore a &#039;&#039;people&#039;&#039;, and established a Church to that end in the last days.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>In recent years, there has been a new kind of critic of Latter-day Saint Apostasy narratives. A strain of Latter-day Saint scholars has argued that Latter-day Saint Apostasy narratives suffer from intellectual deficiencies and pastoral sensitivity. They have been sensitive to notions, promoted by the likes of B.H. Roberts, Joseph Fielding Smith, and James E. Talmage, that the [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages Middle Ages] represented an age of spiritual rot and intellectual imbecility. They have also argued that the Lord may not have intended to restore the Church of Jesus Christ, but rather to restore a &#039;&#039;people&#039;&#039;, and established a Church to that end in the last days.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>It is a valuable exercise for Latter-day Saints to consider the historical, scriptural, and theological grounding for their belief in the Great Apostasy. While some aspects of this belief lie beyond what can be known from the existing documents (and thus beyond the ken of academics), Latter-day Saint belief is not contradicted by existing historical or scriptural evidence. Both the New Testament and other documents establish that an internal rebellion began in the Church in its first century. Those who rebelled did so to gain dominion over others and have the praise of the world. They changed scripture to support movements away from the Church. Because of these new movements, many of our Christian forefathers and foremothers innocently languished for centuries, devoting their intellectual and devotional energy to systems that did not have the power to save and exalt them. They "[were] blinded by the subtle craftiness of men<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, whereby they lie in wait to deceive, </del>and [were] kept from the truth because they [knew] not where to find it" (Doctrine and Covenants 123:12).</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>It is a valuable exercise for Latter-day Saints to consider the historical, scriptural, and theological grounding for their belief in the Great Apostasy. While some aspects of this belief lie beyond what can be known from the existing documents (and thus beyond the ken of academics), Latter-day Saint belief is not contradicted by existing historical or scriptural evidence. Both the New Testament and other documents establish that an internal rebellion began in the Church in its first century. Those who rebelled did so to gain dominion over others and have the praise of the world. They changed scripture to support movements away from the Church. Because of these new movements, many of our Christian forefathers and foremothers innocently languished for centuries, devoting their intellectual and devotional energy to systems that did not have the power to save and exalt them. They "[were] blinded by the subtle craftiness of men <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. . . </ins>and [were] kept from the truth because they [knew] not where to find it" (Doctrine and Covenants 123:12).</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>However, showing that a mass internal rebellion occurred only gives us half of the puzzle. Why did God wait so long to inaugurate the Restoration after the Apostasy? Did He abandon humanity during that time? What happens to all those who did not have the Gospel during the time of the Apostasy? These are also questions we take up in this article.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>However, showing that a mass internal rebellion occurred only gives us half of the puzzle. Why did God wait so long to inaugurate the Restoration after the Apostasy? Did He abandon humanity during that time? What happens to all those who did not have the Gospel during the time of the Apostasy? These are also questions we take up in this article.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Lastly, some might note that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not follow practices taught in its scriptures. While some might believe this is evidence that the Church has apostasized, it is not. The early Church apostasized from key, essential doctrines<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. The </del>restored Church has not.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Lastly, some might note that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not follow practices taught in its scriptures. While some might believe this is evidence that the Church has apostasized, it is not. The early Church apostasized from key, essential doctrines<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">; the </ins>restored Church has not.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>----</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{CollapseHeaders</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>{{CollapseHeaders</div></td></tr> </table>

SpencerMarsh https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=The_Great_Apostasy&diff=266929&oldid=prev 2026-10-06T00:52:27Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 00:52, 6 October 2026</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l312">Line 312:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 312:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>First, some of these individuals may have replaced the Twelve when the Twelve died. That is part of our solution to Acts 12 and the death of James, brother of John, above.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>First, some of these individuals may have replaced the Twelve when the Twelve died. That is part of our solution to Acts 12 and the death of James, brother of John, above.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Second, the Greek word translated as "apostle," ''ἀπόστολος'', literally means "one who is sent on a mission/assignment."&lt;ref&gt;Frederick William Danker, ''The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament'' (University of Chicago Press, 2009), 50.&lt;/ref&gt; In a “general sense,” it means messenger or delegate.&lt;ref&gt;Danker, ''Concise Greek-English Lexicon'', 50.&lt;/ref&gt; It is used especially to refer to people “of extraordinary status in the work of the gospel.”&lt;ref&gt;Danker, ''Concise Greek-English Lexicon'', 50.&lt;/ref&gt; <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Other common translations of that term include "messenger," "envoy," or "ambassador." </del>Thus, referring to someone as an "apostle" does not necessarily make them one of the Twelve with the special authority Jesus gave them.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Second, the Greek word translated as "apostle," ''ἀπόστολος'', literally means "one who is sent on a mission/assignment."&lt;ref&gt;Frederick William Danker, ''The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament'' (University of Chicago Press, 2009), 50.&lt;/ref&gt; In a “general sense,” it means messenger or delegate.&lt;ref&gt;Danker, ''Concise Greek-English Lexicon'', 50.&lt;/ref&gt; It is used especially to refer to people “of extraordinary status in the work of the gospel.”&lt;ref&gt;Danker, ''Concise Greek-English Lexicon'', 50.&lt;/ref&gt; Thus, referring to someone as an "apostle" does not necessarily make them one of the Twelve with the special authority Jesus gave them.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=====The Fate of the Apostles=====</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=====The Fate of the Apostles=====</div></td></tr> </table>

SpencerMarsh https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=The_Great_Apostasy&diff=266928&oldid=prev 2026-10-06T00:51:20Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 00:51, 6 October 2026</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l312">Line 312:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 312:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>First, some of these individuals may have replaced the Twelve when the Twelve died. That is part of our solution to Acts 12 and the death of James, brother of John, above.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>First, some of these individuals may have replaced the Twelve when the Twelve died. That is part of our solution to Acts 12 and the death of James, brother of John, above.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Second, the Greek word translated as "apostle," ''ἀπόστολος'', literally means "one who is sent on a mission/assignment."&lt;ref&gt;Frederick William Danker, The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (University of Chicago Press, 2009), 50.&lt;/ref&gt; In a “general sense,” it means messenger or delegate.&lt;ref&gt;Danker, Concise Greek-English Lexicon, 50.&lt;/ref&gt; It is used especially to refer to people “of extraordinary status in the work of the gospel.”&lt;ref&gt;Danker, Concise Greek-English Lexicon, 50.&lt;/ref&gt; Other common translations of that term include "messenger," "envoy," or "ambassador." Thus, referring to someone as an "apostle" does not necessarily make them one of the Twelve with the special authority Jesus gave them.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Second, the Greek word translated as "apostle," ''ἀπόστολος'', literally means "one who is sent on a mission/assignment."&lt;ref&gt;Frederick William Danker, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </ins>(University of Chicago Press, 2009), 50.&lt;/ref&gt; In a “general sense,” it means messenger or delegate.&lt;ref&gt;Danker, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>Concise Greek-English Lexicon<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>, 50.&lt;/ref&gt; It is used especially to refer to people “of extraordinary status in the work of the gospel.”&lt;ref&gt;Danker, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>Concise Greek-English Lexicon<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>, 50.&lt;/ref&gt; Other common translations of that term include "messenger," "envoy," or "ambassador." Thus, referring to someone as an "apostle" does not necessarily make them one of the Twelve with the special authority Jesus gave them.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=====The Fate of the Apostles=====</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=====The Fate of the Apostles=====</div></td></tr> </table>

SpencerMarsh https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=The_Great_Apostasy&diff=266927&oldid=prev 2026-10-06T00:50:19Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 00:50, 6 October 2026</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l308">Line 308:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 308:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=====Scripture Outside the Model=====</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=====Scripture Outside the Model=====</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Some might point out that others outside of the Twelve are called "apostles" in the New Testament. These include <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">individuals such as </del>Paul, Barnabas, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and James</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the brother of Jesus </del>(1 <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Cor. 15</del>:7<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">; Gal. </del>1:<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">19</del>), <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">as well as </del>Andronicus <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and </del>Junia (Romans 16:7)<del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. Further</del>, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">one might point out that some of the New Testament scripture accepted as authoritative comes from individuals who were not part of the Twelve. This includes Jude </del>and <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Paul</del>.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Some might point out that others outside of the Twelve are called "apostles" in the New Testament. These <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">individuals </ins>include Paul <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(Romans 1:1)</ins>, Barnabas <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(Acts 14:14), Apollos (1 Corinthians 4:6</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">9)</ins>, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Silvanus </ins>(1 <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Thessalonians 1:1; 2</ins>:7<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">), Jesus's brother James (Galatians </ins>1:<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">9</ins>), Andronicus <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(Romans 16:7), </ins>Junia (Romans 16:7), <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Epaphroditus (Phillipians 2:25), </ins>and <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Titus (2 Corinthians 8:23)</ins>.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>First, some of these individuals may have replaced the Twelve when <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">they </del>died. That is part of our solution to Acts 12 and the death of James, brother of John, above.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>First, some of these individuals may have replaced the Twelve when <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">the Twelve </ins>died. That is part of our solution to Acts 12 and the death of James, brother of John, above.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Second, the Greek word translated as "apostle," ''ἀπόστολος'', literally means "one who is sent <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">off</del>." Other common translations of that term include "messenger," "envoy," or "ambassador." Thus, referring to someone as an "apostle" does not necessarily make them one of the Twelve with the special authority Jesus gave them.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Second, the Greek word translated as "apostle," ''ἀπόστολος'', literally means "one who is sent <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">on a mission/assignment</ins>."<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">&lt;ref&gt;Frederick William Danker, The Concise Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (University of Chicago Press, 2009), 50.&lt;/ref&gt; In a “general sense,” it means messenger or delegate.&lt;ref&gt;Danker, Concise Greek-English Lexicon, 50.&lt;/ref&gt; It is used especially to refer to people “of extraordinary status in the work of the gospel.”&lt;ref&gt;Danker, Concise Greek-English Lexicon, 50.&lt;/ref&gt; </ins>Other common translations of that term include "messenger," "envoy," or "ambassador." Thus, referring to someone as an "apostle" does not necessarily make them one of the Twelve with the special authority Jesus gave them.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=====The Fate of the Apostles=====</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=====The Fate of the Apostles=====</div></td></tr> </table>

SpencerMarsh https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=The_Great_Apostasy&diff=266882&oldid=prev 2026-09-17T16:07:49Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:07, 17 September 2026</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l473">Line 473:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 473:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Three Nephites were made to do a work similar to that of John the Apostle. Before the Great Apostasy, Mormon records that they ministered unto &quot;all the people,&quot; uniting and baptizing as many as would believe into the Church (3 Nephi 28:18). They apparently ministered unto Mormon and Moroni (3 Nephi 28:26; Mormon 8:11). Three others were ordained as Apostles in their stead after their translation (4 Nephi 1:14). The Lord physically took them away from the Nephites because of the Nephites&#039; prevailing wickedness (Mormon 1:13; 8:10). Mormon tells us that there would be a moment in the Lord&#039;s timetable in which the Three Nephites would again &quot;minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them&quot; (3 Nephi 28:29). By praying to God they can show themselves unto whomever seems good to them (3 Nephi 28:30)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Three Nephites were made to do a work similar to that of John the Apostle. Before the Great Apostasy, Mormon records that they ministered unto &quot;all the people,&quot; uniting and baptizing as many as would believe into the Church (3 Nephi 28:18). They apparently ministered unto Mormon and Moroni (3 Nephi 28:26; Mormon 8:11). Three others were ordained as Apostles in their stead after their translation (4 Nephi 1:14). The Lord physically took them away from the Nephites because of the Nephites&#039; prevailing wickedness (Mormon 1:13; 8:10). Mormon tells us that there would be a moment in the Lord&#039;s timetable in which the Three Nephites would again &quot;minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them&quot; (3 Nephi 28:29). By praying to God they can show themselves unto whomever seems good to them (3 Nephi 28:30)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>John and the Three Nephites must have retained apostolic authority since John eventually ordained Joseph and Oliver to that authority. However, it is also clear that they did not &lt;i&gt;exercise&lt;/i&gt; that authority to administer the Church. (In the case of the Three Nephites, their replacement with three new Apostles as well as their physical removal from the Americas makes this particularly clear.) This shows that there must be a distinction between priesthood ''power'', priesthood ''keys'' or ''authority'', and ''permission to exercise'' those keys or bestow them upon others. God did not enact a &lt;i&gt;custodial&lt;/i&gt; loss of priesthood authority on the earth, but a &lt;i&gt;practical&lt;/i&gt; loss. Even during the Great Apostasy, He has allowed John and the Three Nephites to minister unto specific people(s) and bring them to salvation and exaltation. However, as translated beings, they were not permitted to ''use'' their keys to restore and administer the Church during the Great Apostasy. Allowing beings that could not taste death to administer the Church may have been an improper use of divine authority. People would notice whether four individuals could never taste death, and that may have taken away the need to exercise faith.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>John and the Three Nephites must have retained apostolic authority since John eventually ordained Joseph and Oliver to that authority. However, it is also clear that they did not &lt;i&gt;exercise&lt;/i&gt; that authority to administer the Church<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">. They did not operate within normal ecclesiastical channels</ins>. (In the case of the Three Nephites, their replacement with three <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>new<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </ins>Apostles as well as their physical removal from the Americas makes this particularly clear.) This shows that there must be a distinction between priesthood ''power'', priesthood ''keys'' or ''authority'', and ''permission to exercise'' those keys or bestow them upon others. God did not enact a &lt;i&gt;custodial&lt;/i&gt; loss of priesthood authority on the earth, but a &lt;i&gt;practical&lt;/i&gt; loss. Even during the Great Apostasy, He has allowed John and the Three Nephites to minister unto specific people(s) and bring them to salvation and exaltation. However, as translated beings, they were not permitted to ''use'' their keys to restore and administer the Church during the Great Apostasy. Allowing beings that could not taste death to administer the Church may have been an improper use of divine authority. People would notice whether four individuals could never taste death, and that may have taken away the need to exercise faith.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&lt;/wt&gt;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&lt;/wt&gt;</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>}}</div></td></tr> </table>

SpencerMarsh https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=The_Great_Apostasy&diff=266881&oldid=prev 2026-09-17T16:05:09Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:05, 17 September 2026</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l469">Line 469:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 469:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>These men are now &#039;&#039;translated beings&#039;&#039;. As Mark L. McConkie explained, &quot;Latter-day Saint scriptures speak of a unique class of beings, persons whom the Lord has &#039;translated&#039; or changed from a mortal state to one in which they are temporarily not subject to death, and in which they experience neither pain nor sorrow except for the sins of the world. Such beings appear to have much greater power than mortals. All translated beings will eventually experience physical death and resurrection (MD, p. 807-808). Translation is a necessary condition in special instances to further the work of the Lord.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;Mark L. McConkie, &quot;[https://eom.byu.edu/index.php?title=Translated_Beings Translated Beings],&quot; in &#039;&#039;Encyclopedia of Mormonism&#039;&#039;, ed. Daniel H. Ludlow, 6 vols. (MacMillan Publishing, 1992), 4:1485.&lt;/ref&gt;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>These men are now &#039;&#039;translated beings&#039;&#039;. As Mark L. McConkie explained, &quot;Latter-day Saint scriptures speak of a unique class of beings, persons whom the Lord has &#039;translated&#039; or changed from a mortal state to one in which they are temporarily not subject to death, and in which they experience neither pain nor sorrow except for the sins of the world. Such beings appear to have much greater power than mortals. All translated beings will eventually experience physical death and resurrection (MD, p. 807-808). Translation is a necessary condition in special instances to further the work of the Lord.&quot;&lt;ref&gt;Mark L. McConkie, &quot;[https://eom.byu.edu/index.php?title=Translated_Beings Translated Beings],&quot; in &#039;&#039;Encyclopedia of Mormonism&#039;&#039;, ed. Daniel H. Ludlow, 6 vols. (MacMillan Publishing, 1992), 4:1485.&lt;/ref&gt;</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>John the Beloved wanted “power over death” so that he could bring souls unto Christ (Doctrine and Covenants 7:2). Christ gave John that power. John was to remain on the earth until Christ’s Second Coming. Until that time, he was to “prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues, and people” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:3). John was made “as a flaming fire and a ministering angel” and was assigned to “minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:6). The Savior told Peter that He would make Peter “minister for John and for thy brother James.” Importantly, the Savior said, “and unto you three I will give this power and keys of this ministry &lt;i&gt;until I come&lt;/i&gt;” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:7, emphasis added). <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">John </del>then <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">appeared with </del>Peter <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and </del>James, <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">with apostolic keys "committed" to them, </del>to <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">give those </del>keys to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13). Those keys were defined as the keys of Joseph and Oliver’s ministry (Doctrine and Covenants 27:12) and the “keys of [Christ’s] kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times” (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13).</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>John the Beloved wanted “power over death” so that he could bring souls unto Christ (Doctrine and Covenants 7:2). Christ gave John that power. John was to remain on the earth until Christ’s Second Coming. Until that time, he was to “prophesy before nations, kindreds, tongues, and people” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:3). John was made “as a flaming fire and a ministering angel” and was assigned to “minister for those who shall be heirs of salvation who dwell on the earth” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:6). The Savior told Peter that He would make Peter “minister for John and for thy brother James.” Importantly, the Savior said, “and unto you three I will give this power and keys of this ministry &lt;i&gt;until I come&lt;/i&gt;” (Doctrine and Covenants 7:7, emphasis added). <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">God </ins>then <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">sent </ins>Peter<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">, </ins>James, <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">and John </ins>to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">confer their </ins>keys to Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13). Those keys were defined as the keys of Joseph and Oliver’s ministry (Doctrine and Covenants 27:12) and the “keys of [Christ’s] kingdom, and a dispensation of the gospel for the last times; and for the fulness of times” (Doctrine and Covenants 27:13).</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Three Nephites were made to do a work similar to that of John the Apostle. Before the Great Apostasy, Mormon records that they ministered unto &quot;all the people,&quot; uniting and baptizing as many as would believe into the Church (3 Nephi 28:18). They apparently ministered unto Mormon and Moroni (3 Nephi 28:26; Mormon 8:11). Three others were ordained as Apostles in their stead after their translation (4 Nephi 1:14). The Lord physically took them away from the Nephites because of the Nephites&#039; prevailing wickedness (Mormon 1:13; 8:10). Mormon tells us that there would be a moment in the Lord&#039;s timetable in which the Three Nephites would again &quot;minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them&quot; (3 Nephi 28:29). By praying to God they can show themselves unto whomever seems good to them (3 Nephi 28:30)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Three Nephites were made to do a work similar to that of John the Apostle. Before the Great Apostasy, Mormon records that they ministered unto &quot;all the people,&quot; uniting and baptizing as many as would believe into the Church (3 Nephi 28:18). They apparently ministered unto Mormon and Moroni (3 Nephi 28:26; Mormon 8:11). Three others were ordained as Apostles in their stead after their translation (4 Nephi 1:14). The Lord physically took them away from the Nephites because of the Nephites&#039; prevailing wickedness (Mormon 1:13; 8:10). Mormon tells us that there would be a moment in the Lord&#039;s timetable in which the Three Nephites would again &quot;minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them&quot; (3 Nephi 28:29). By praying to God they can show themselves unto whomever seems good to them (3 Nephi 28:30)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>John and the Three Nephites must have retained apostolic authority since John eventually ordained Joseph and Oliver to that authority. However, it is also clear that they did not &lt;i&gt;exercise&lt;/i&gt; that authority to administer the Church. (In the case of the Three Nephites, their replacement with three new Apostles as well as their physical removal from the Americas makes this particularly clear.) This shows that there must be a distinction between priesthood ''power'', priesthood ''keys'' or ''authority'', and ''permission to exercise'' those keys or bestow them upon others. God did not enact a &lt;i&gt;custodial&lt;/i&gt; loss of priesthood authority on the earth, but a &lt;i&gt;practical&lt;/i&gt; loss. Even during the Great Apostasy, He has allowed John and the Three Nephites to minister unto specific people(s) and bring them to salvation and exaltation. However, as translated beings, they were not permitted to use their keys to restore and administer the Church during the Great Apostasy. Allowing beings that could not taste death to administer the Church may have been an improper use of divine authority. People would notice whether four individuals could never taste death, and that may have taken away the need to exercise faith.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>John and the Three Nephites must have retained apostolic authority since John eventually ordained Joseph and Oliver to that authority. However, it is also clear that they did not &lt;i&gt;exercise&lt;/i&gt; that authority to administer the Church. (In the case of the Three Nephites, their replacement with three new Apostles as well as their physical removal from the Americas makes this particularly clear.) This shows that there must be a distinction between priesthood ''power'', priesthood ''keys'' or ''authority'', and ''permission to exercise'' those keys or bestow them upon others. God did not enact a &lt;i&gt;custodial&lt;/i&gt; loss of priesthood authority on the earth, but a &lt;i&gt;practical&lt;/i&gt; loss. Even during the Great Apostasy, He has allowed John and the Three Nephites to minister unto specific people(s) and bring them to salvation and exaltation. However, as translated beings, they were not permitted to <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">''</ins>use<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">'' </ins>their keys to restore and administer the Church during the Great Apostasy. Allowing beings that could not taste death to administer the Church may have been an improper use of divine authority. People would notice whether four individuals could never taste death, and that may have taken away the need to exercise faith.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&lt;/wt&gt;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&lt;/wt&gt;</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>}}</div></td></tr> </table>

SpencerMarsh https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=The_Great_Apostasy&diff=266880&oldid=prev 2026-09-17T16:01:11Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:01, 17 September 2026</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l473">Line 473:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 473:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Three Nephites were made to do a work similar to that of John the Apostle. Before the Great Apostasy, Mormon records that they ministered unto &quot;all the people,&quot; uniting and baptizing as many as would believe into the Church (3 Nephi 28:18). They apparently ministered unto Mormon and Moroni (3 Nephi 28:26; Mormon 8:11). Three others were ordained as Apostles in their stead after their translation (4 Nephi 1:14). The Lord physically took them away from the Nephites because of the Nephites&#039; prevailing wickedness (Mormon 1:13; 8:10). Mormon tells us that there would be a moment in the Lord&#039;s timetable in which the Three Nephites would again &quot;minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them&quot; (3 Nephi 28:29). By praying to God they can show themselves unto whomever seems good to them (3 Nephi 28:30)</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The Three Nephites were made to do a work similar to that of John the Apostle. Before the Great Apostasy, Mormon records that they ministered unto &quot;all the people,&quot; uniting and baptizing as many as would believe into the Church (3 Nephi 28:18). They apparently ministered unto Mormon and Moroni (3 Nephi 28:26; Mormon 8:11). Three others were ordained as Apostles in their stead after their translation (4 Nephi 1:14). The Lord physically took them away from the Nephites because of the Nephites&#039; prevailing wickedness (Mormon 1:13; 8:10). Mormon tells us that there would be a moment in the Lord&#039;s timetable in which the Three Nephites would again &quot;minister unto all the scattered tribes of Israel, and unto all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people, and shall bring out of them unto Jesus many souls, that their desire may be fulfilled, and also because of the convincing power of God which is in them&quot; (3 Nephi 28:29). By praying to God they can show themselves unto whomever seems good to them (3 Nephi 28:30)</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>John and the Three Nephites must have retained apostolic authority since John eventually ordained Joseph and Oliver to that authority. However, it is also clear that they did not &lt;i&gt;exercise&lt;/i&gt; that authority to administer the Church. This shows that there must be a distinction between priesthood ''power'', priesthood ''keys'' or ''authority'', and ''permission to exercise'' those keys or bestow them upon others. God did not enact a &lt;i&gt;custodial&lt;/i&gt; loss of priesthood authority on the earth, but a &lt;i&gt;practical&lt;/i&gt; loss. Even during the Great Apostasy, He has allowed John and the Three Nephites to minister unto specific people(s) and bring them to salvation and exaltation. However, as translated beings, they were not permitted to use their keys to restore and administer the Church during the Great Apostasy. Allowing beings that could not taste death to administer the Church may have been an improper use of divine authority. People would notice whether four individuals could never taste death, and that may have taken away the need to exercise faith.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>John and the Three Nephites must have retained apostolic authority since John eventually ordained Joseph and Oliver to that authority. However, it is also clear that they did not &lt;i&gt;exercise&lt;/i&gt; that authority to administer the Church. <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">(In the case of the Three Nephites, their replacement with three new Apostles as well as their physical removal from the Americas makes this particularly clear.) </ins>This shows that there must be a distinction between priesthood ''power'', priesthood ''keys'' or ''authority'', and ''permission to exercise'' those keys or bestow them upon others. God did not enact a &lt;i&gt;custodial&lt;/i&gt; loss of priesthood authority on the earth, but a &lt;i&gt;practical&lt;/i&gt; loss. Even during the Great Apostasy, He has allowed John and the Three Nephites to minister unto specific people(s) and bring them to salvation and exaltation. However, as translated beings, they were not permitted to use their keys to restore and administer the Church during the Great Apostasy. Allowing beings that could not taste death to administer the Church may have been an improper use of divine authority. People would notice whether four individuals could never taste death, and that may have taken away the need to exercise faith.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&lt;/wt&gt;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>&lt;/wt&gt;</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>}}</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>}}</div></td></tr> </table>

SpencerMarsh https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=The_Great_Apostasy&diff=266879&oldid=prev 2026-09-17T15:03:22Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 15:03, 17 September 2026</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l487">Line 487:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 487:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=====The Key Doctrines=====</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>=====The Key Doctrines=====</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">As mentioned before, the </del>Apostasy resulted from the rejection of key doctrines. Below, we explore some of the possibilities. It is important that we do not overclaim regarding what needs to be a part of the ancient Church. Joseph Smith explained that the dispensation of the fullness of times was "a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories," that this dispensation included all dispensations, keys, powers, and glories "from the days of Adam even to the present time. '''And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent''', shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times" (Doctrine and Covenants 128:18, emphasis added). The Restoration does not need to be a one-for-one match to the primitive church to be an authentic restoration.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">The </ins>Apostasy resulted from the rejection of key doctrines. Below, we explore some of the possibilities <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">for ''which'' key doctrines</ins>. It is important that we do not overclaim regarding what needs to be a part of the ancient Church. Joseph Smith explained that the dispensation of the fullness of times was "a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories," that this dispensation included all dispensations, keys, powers, and glories "from the days of Adam even to the present time. '''And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent''', shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times" (Doctrine and Covenants 128:18, emphasis added). The Restoration does not need to be a one-for-one match to the primitive church to be an authentic restoration.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l510">Line 510:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 510:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>From a Latter-day Saint perspective, the issue is not merely one of ritual preference but of preserving the doctrine embodied in the ordinance itself. If baptism is intended to represent participation in Christ&#039;s death, burial, and resurrection, then changing its mode necessarily weakens or obscures that symbolism. The Restoration&#039;s return to baptism by immersion under proper priesthood authority is therefore understood as a restoration of both the ordinance and the profound doctrine of the Atonement that the ordinance was designed to proclaim.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>From a Latter-day Saint perspective, the issue is not merely one of ritual preference but of preserving the doctrine embodied in the ordinance itself. If baptism is intended to represent participation in Christ&#039;s death, burial, and resurrection, then changing its mode necessarily weakens or obscures that symbolism. The Restoration&#039;s return to baptism by immersion under proper priesthood authority is therefore understood as a restoration of both the ordinance and the profound doctrine of the Atonement that the ordinance was designed to proclaim.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>======Closing the Canon======</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div><ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">&lt;!--</ins>======Closing the Canon======</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The widespread belief that the canon of scripture had permanently closed may itself be evidence of the Great Apostasy. Although the process of recognizing the books of the New Testament unfolded gradually over several centuries, by the fourth and fifth centuries, many Christians had come to regard the biblical canon as complete and closed, with no expectation of additional scripture or authoritative revelation.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The widespread belief that the canon of scripture had permanently closed may itself be evidence of the Great Apostasy. Although the process of recognizing the books of the New Testament unfolded gradually over several centuries, by the fourth and fifth centuries, many Christians had come to regard the biblical canon as complete and closed, with no expectation of additional scripture or authoritative revelation.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l517">Line 517:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 517:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>If God truly intends to guide His Church through continuing revelation, then the loss of that expectation represents a profound spiritual change. The conviction that God had finished speaking effectively removed the expectation of new prophets, new scripture, and divine direction for new circumstances. Latter-day Saints, therefore, see the doctrine of a closed canon not merely as a theological conclusion, but as a symptom of a Church that no longer expected or received the revelatory voice of God.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>If God truly intends to guide His Church through continuing revelation, then the loss of that expectation represents a profound spiritual change. The conviction that God had finished speaking effectively removed the expectation of new prophets, new scripture, and divine direction for new circumstances. Latter-day Saints, therefore, see the doctrine of a closed canon not merely as a theological conclusion, but as a symptom of a Church that no longer expected or received the revelatory voice of God.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This perspective does not imply that God abandoned humanity or ceased inspiring individuals. Rather, it suggests that the institutional Church gradually lost the prophetic authority through which binding revelation for the whole Church was received. The Restoration's claim of continuing revelation and an open canon is therefore not an innovation but a return to the biblical pattern, in which God repeatedly declares, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7). The Restoration's addition of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and ongoing prophetic revelation reflects the conviction that a living God continues to speak to His children today.</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This perspective does not imply that God abandoned humanity or ceased inspiring individuals. Rather, it suggests that the institutional Church gradually lost the prophetic authority through which binding revelation for the whole Church was received. The Restoration's claim of continuing revelation and an open canon is therefore not an innovation but a return to the biblical pattern, in which God repeatedly declares, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" (Amos 3:7). The Restoration's addition of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and ongoing prophetic revelation reflects the conviction that a living God continues to speak to His children today.<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">--&gt;</ins></div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>======The Change of Covenants======</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>======The Change of Covenants======</div></td></tr> </table>

SpencerMarsh https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/answers/index.php?title=The_Great_Apostasy&diff=266853&oldid=prev 2026-09-10T16:28:30Z

<p></p> <table style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122;" data-mw="interface"> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <col class="diff-marker" /> <col class="diff-content" /> <tr class="diff-title" lang="en"> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">← Older revision</td> <td colspan="2" style="background-color: #fff; color: #202122; text-align: center;">Revision as of 16:28, 10 September 2026</td> </tr><tr><td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno" id="mw-diff-left-l269">Line 269:</td> <td colspan="2" class="diff-lineno">Line 269:</td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Accordingly, “the gates of Hades” can naturally be understood as a reference to the power of death. Some modern translations render the expression in this way. This interpretation also fits the broader New Testament association between death and sin: “The sting of death is sin” (1 Corinthians 15:56). On this reading, Christ&#039;s declaration in Matthew 16:18 is fundamentally a promise that death and the powers of evil will ultimately be defeated, rather than an explicit promise that an earthly institutional organization will remain continuously intact.</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>Accordingly, “the gates of Hades” can naturally be understood as a reference to the power of death. Some modern translations render the expression in this way. This interpretation also fits the broader New Testament association between death and sin: “The sting of death is sin” (1 Corinthians 15:56). On this reading, Christ&#039;s declaration in Matthew 16:18 is fundamentally a promise that death and the powers of evil will ultimately be defeated, rather than an explicit promise that an earthly institutional organization will remain continuously intact.</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="−"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #ffe49c; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This distinction has even been recognized by Catholic scholarship. Michael W. Winter, a former lecturer in <del style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">Fundamental Theology </del>at St. John's Seminary, observes in his defense of the papacy that “although some writers have applied the idea of immortality to the survival of the church, it seems preferable to see it as a promise of triumph over evil.”&lt;ref&gt;Michael W. Winter, ''Saint Peter and the Popes'' (Burns &amp; Oates, 1960), 17.&lt;/ref&gt;</div></td><td class="diff-marker" data-marker="+"></td><td style="color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #a3d3ff; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>This distinction has even been recognized by Catholic scholarship. Michael W. Winter, a former lecturer in <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_theology fundamental theology] </ins>at <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_John%27s_Seminary_(Massachusetts) </ins>St. John's Seminary<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">]</ins>, observes in his defense of the <ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope </ins>papacy<ins style="font-weight: bold; text-decoration: none;">] </ins>that “although some writers have applied the idea of immortality to the survival of the church, it seems preferable to see it as a promise of triumph over evil.”&lt;ref&gt;Michael W. Winter, ''Saint Peter and the Popes'' (Burns &amp; Oates, 1960), 17.&lt;/ref&gt;</div></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><br></td></tr> <tr><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The imagery becomes particularly significant when considered alongside early Christian traditions concerning Christ&#039;s descent into Hades. Early Christian writers frequently depicted Christ&#039;s death and resurrection in terms of Christ entering the realm of the dead, breaking its gates, and liberating the righteous dead. One tradition attributed to Athanasius, for example, describes Christ as bursting open “the gates of brass” and breaking “the bolts of iron,” thereby bringing the souls from &#039;&#039;Amente&#039;&#039;—the Coptic equivalent of Hades—to the Father, while their bodies were raised upon the earth.&lt;ref&gt;“Discourse of Apa Athanasius Concerning the Soul and the Body,” in E. A. Wallis Budge, &#039;&#039;Coptic Homilies&#039;&#039; (Longmans, Green, and Co., 1910), 271–72.&lt;/ref&gt;</div></td><td class="diff-marker"></td><td style="background-color: #f8f9fa; color: #202122; font-size: 88%; border-style: solid; border-width: 1px 1px 1px 4px; border-radius: 0.33em; border-color: #eaecf0; vertical-align: top; white-space: pre-wrap;"><div>The imagery becomes particularly significant when considered alongside early Christian traditions concerning Christ&#039;s descent into Hades. Early Christian writers frequently depicted Christ&#039;s death and resurrection in terms of Christ entering the realm of the dead, breaking its gates, and liberating the righteous dead. One tradition attributed to Athanasius, for example, describes Christ as bursting open “the gates of brass” and breaking “the bolts of iron,” thereby bringing the souls from &#039;&#039;Amente&#039;&#039;—the Coptic equivalent of Hades—to the Father, while their bodies were raised upon the earth.&lt;ref&gt;“Discourse of Apa Athanasius Concerning the Soul and the Body,” in E. A. Wallis Budge, &#039;&#039;Coptic Homilies&#039;&#039; (Longmans, Green, and Co., 1910), 271–72.&lt;/ref&gt;</div></td></tr> </table>

SpencerMarsh