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#REDIRECT[[Joseph Smith and folk magic or the occult#How did Joseph Smith use his seer stones as a youth?]]
{{Resource Title|Joseph's use of the seer stone as a youth}}
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== ==
{{QA label}}
{{:Question: How did Joseph use his seer stones as a youth?}}
{{:Source:Gardner:Joseph the Seer:2009 FAIR Conference:long before golden plates complicated his position as a local seer}}
{{:Question: Did Joseph place his seer stone in his hat while looking for lost objects?}}
{{:Question: How many seer stones did Joseph Smith have in his possession?}}


 
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==Question: What did the stones look like?==
[[es:El Libro de Mormón/Traducción/Piedras vidente]]
One witness reported (of the first, brown stone), from 1826:
[[de:Das Buch Mormon/Übersetzung/Sehersteine]]
 
[[pt:O Livro de Mórmon/Tradução/Pedra vidente]]
:It was about the size of a small hen's egg, in the shape of a high-instepped shoe. It was composed of layers of different colors passing diagonally through it. It was very hard and smooth, perhaps by being carried in the pocket.<ref>W. D. Purple,  ''The Chenango Union'' (3 May 1877); cited in {{NewWitnessForChrist1|vol=2|start=365}} (See Van Wagoner and Walker, 54.)</ref>
 
The second stone:
 
: [the] Seer Stone was the shape of an egg though not quite so large, of a gray cast something like granite but with white stripes running around it.  It was transparent but had no holes, neither on the end or in the sides.<ref>Richard Marcellas Robinson, "The History of a Nephite Coin," manuscript, 20 December 1834, LDS Church archives; cited in {{Ashurst-McGee-Thesis1|start=264}}</ref>
 
==Question: How were the stone(s) involved in the translation of the Book of Mormon?==
 
There is considerable evidence that the location of the plates and Nephite interpreters (Urim and Thummim) were revealed to Joseph via his second, white seer stone.  In 1859, Martin Harris recalled that "Joseph had a stone which was dug from the well of Mason Chase...It was by means of this stone he first discovered the plates."<ref>Mormonism&mdash;II," ''Tiffany's Monthly'' (June 1859): 163, see also 169; cited in Ashurst-McGee (2000), 286.</ref>
 
Some critics have sought to create a contradiction here, since Joseph's history reported that Moroni revealed the plates to him ({{s||JS-H|1|34-35,42}}).  This is an example of a false dichotomy: Moroni could easily have told Joseph about the plates and interpreters.  The vision to Joseph may well have then come through the seer stone, as some of the sections of the Doctrine and Covenants (e.g., Section X) would later be revealed.  One account matches this theory well:
 
:I had a conversation with [Joseph], and asked him where he found them [the plates] and how he come to know where they were.  he said he had a revelation from God that told him they were hid in a certain hill and he looked in his [seer] stone and saw them in the place of deposit."<ref>Henry Harris, statement in E.D. Howe ''Mormonism Unvailed'' (1833), 252; cited in Ashurst-McGee (2000), 290.</ref>
Joseph Knight recalled that Joseph was more excited about the Nephite interpreters than the gold plates:
 
:After breakfast Joseph called me into the other room, set his foot on the bed, and leaned his head on his hand and said, "Well I am disappointed."
:"Well, I said, "I am sorry."
:"Well, he said, "I am greatly disappointed.  It is ten times better than I expected."
:Then he went on to tell the length and width and thickness of the plates and, said he, they appear to be gold.  But, he seemed to think more of the glasses or the Urim and Thummim than he did of the plate for, said he, "I can see anything.  They are marvelous."<ref>Joseph Knight, cited in Leonard J. Arrington and Davis Bitton, ''Saints Without Halos: The Human Side of Mormon History'' (Salt Lake City, Signature Books, 1981), 6.  Spelling and punctuation have been modernized.  The original text reads: "After Brackfist Joseph Cald me in to the other Room and he sit his foot on the Bed and leaned his head on his hand and says, well I am Dissopented. Well, say I, I am sorrey. Well, says he, I am grateley Dissopnted. It is ten times Better then I expected. Then he went on to tell the length and width and thickness of the plates and, said he, they appear to be gold. But he seamed to think more of the glasses or the urim and thummim than he Did of the plates for says he, I can see anything. They are Marvelous."</ref>
 
Martin Harris later described the Nephite interpreters as
 
:about two inches in diameter, perfectly round, and about five-eighths of an inch thick at the centre.... They were joined by a round bar of silver, about three-eights of an inch in diameter, and about four inches long, which with the two stones, would make eight inches.<ref>Joel Tiffany, "Mormonism&mdash;No. II," ''Tiffany's Monthly'' (June 1859): 165&ndash;166; cited in VanWagoner and Walker, footnote 27.</ref>
 
Despite having the Nephite interpreters, Joseph Smith often used the seer stone to translate.  This led to an episode in which Martin tested the veracity of Joseph's claim to use the second, white stone to translate:<ref>Tiffany, 163.</ref>
 
:Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone Joseph sometimes used in place of the interpreters and substituted it without the Prophet’s knowledge. When the translation resumed, Joseph paused for a long time and then exclaimed, “Martin, what is the matter, all is as dark as Egypt.” Martin then confessed that he wished to “stop the mouths of fools” who told him that the Prophet memorized sentences and merely repeated them.<ref>Told in ''Millennial Star'' 44:87; quotation from {{Ensign1|author=Kenneth W. Godfrey|article=[https://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/01/a-new-prophet-and-a-new-scripture-the-coming-forth-of-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng A New Prophet and a New Scripture: The Coming Forth of the Book of Mormon]|date=January 1988|start=6}}</ref>
 
Joseph also seems to have sometimes removed the Nephite stones from the "silver bows" which held them like spectacles, and used them as individual seer stones.  Joseph used his white seer stone sometimes "for convenience" during the translation of the 116 pages with Martin Harris; later witnesses reported him using his brown seer stone.<ref>See {{Ashurst-McGee-Thesis|start=320|end=326}}</ref>
 
{{Detail|Joseph Smith/Seer stones/"Rock in hat" used for Book of Mormon translation|l1=Why would Joseph use the "rock in the hat" for the Book of Mormon translation that he previously used for "money digging?"}}
 
{{:Source:Kenneth W. Godfrey:A New Prophet and a New Scripture:Ensign:January 1988:Once Martin found a rock closely resembling the seerstone}}
 
==Question: Why did use of the seer stones subside?==
 
These "Urim and Thummim" were the means of receiving most of the formal revelations  until June 1829.  That was the time of completing the Book of Mormon, which was translated through the Nephite interpreters and also Joseph's other seer stone(s). After this, seer stones were generally not used while receiving  revelation  or translation. (The JST and the Book of Abraham translations both began with seer stone usage, but Joseph soon quit using them.<ref>{{Ashurst-McGee-Thesis|start=334|end=337}}</ref>)  Following his baptism, receipt of the Holy Ghost, and ordination to the Melchizedek priesthood, Joseph seems have felt far less need to resort to the stones.<ref>{{Ashurst-McGee-Thesis|start=332|end=333}}</ref> He had learned, through divine tutoring, how to receive unmediated revelation&mdash;the Lord had taken him "line upon line" from where he was (surrounded with beliefs about seeing and divining) and brought him to further light, knowledge, and power.
 
This perspective was reinforced by Orson Pratt, who watched the New Testament revision (JST) and wondered why the use of seer stones/interpreters (as with the Book of Mormon) was not continued:
 
:While this thought passed through the speaker's mind, Joseph, as if he read his thoughts, looked up and explained that the Lord gave him the Urim and Thummim when he was inexperienced in the Spirit of inspiration. But now he had advanced so far that he understood the operations of that Spirit and did not need the assistance of that instrument.<ref>{{MatureJS}} ; citing Orson Pratt, "Discourse at Brigham City," 27 June 1874, Ogden (Utah) Junction, cited in {{MS|author=Orson Pratt|article=Two Days´ Meeting at Brigham City|vol=36|date=11 August 1874|start=498|end=499}}</ref>
 
==Question: Are there any Biblical parallels to Joseph's seer stone understanding?==
 
The idea of sacred stones acting as revelators to believers is present in the Bible, and Joseph Smith embraced a decidedly "non-magical" and "pro-religious" view of them:
 
:In Revelation,  John  incorporates past religious symbols into his message. Thus the most internally consistent interpretation of the "white stone" combines with the book's assurance that the faithful will become "kings and priests" to the Most High  (Rev. 1:6).  These eternal priests will be in tune with God's will, like the High Priest with the breastplate of shining stones and the Urim. In Hebrew that term means "light," corresponding to the "white" stone of John's Revelation. This correlation should be obvious, but Joseph Smith is virtually alone in confidence that  John  sees the redeemed as full High Priests: "Then the white stone mentioned in  Rev. 2:17  is the Urim and Thummim, whereby all things pertaining to a higher order of kingdoms, even all kingdoms, will be made know."  As for genuine religion, Joseph Smith perceived the stone of John's vision not as a stone of chance but as a conduit of enlightenment and a reward of worthiness of character.<ref>{{MatureJS}}</ref>
 
==Question: What happened to the seer stones?==
 
As noted above, the Nephite interpreters were apparently reclaimed by Moroni following the loss of the 116 pages, and were only seen again by the Three Witnesses ([http://scriptures.lds.org/en/bm/thrwtnss Testimony of Three]).
 
Van Wagoner and Walker write:
: David Whitmer indicated that the seer stone was later given to Oliver Cowdery: "After the translation of the Book of Mormon was finished early in the spring of 1830 before April 6th, Joseph gave the Stone to Oliver Cowdery and told me as well as the rest that he was through with it, and he did not use the Stone anymore.”  Whitmer, who was Cowdery's brother-in-law, stated that on Oliver's death in 1848, another brother-in-law, "Phineas Young, a brother of Brigham Young, and an old-time and once intimate friend of the Cowdery family came out from Salt Lake City, and during his visit he contrived to get the stone from its hiding place, through a little deceptive sophistry, extended upon the grief-stricken widow. When he returned to Utah he carried it in triumph to the apostles of Brigham Young's 'lion house.'"...
 
[Van Wagoner and Walker here confuse the two seer stones, so this section is not included here, given that better information has since come to light.]
 
:...Joseph Fielding Smith, as an apostle, made clear that "the Seer Stone which was in the possession of the Prophet Joseph Smith in early days . . . is now in the possession of the Church." Elder Joseph Anderson, Assistant to the Council of the Twelve and long-time secretary to the First Presidency, clarified in 1971 that the "Seer Stone that Joseph Smith used in the early days of the Church is in possession of the Church and is kept in a safe in Joseph Fielding Smith's office.... [The stone is] slightly smaller than a chicken egg, oval, chocolate in color."<ref>Van Wagoner and Walker, 58&ndash;59 (citations removed).</ref>  (This would be Joseph's first, "shoe-shaped stone," which was given to Oliver Cowdery, and then to his brother-in-law Phineas Young, brother of Brigham Young.<ref>Van Wagoner and Walker, 58&ndash;59 (citations removed). See also {{Ashurst-McGee-Thesis|start=230|231}}</ref>
 
Joseph's second (white) stone is also in the possession of the LDS First Presidency.<ref>Quinn, ''Early Mormonism and the Magic World View'' 242&ndash;247.</ref>
 
==Question: Has the Church tried to hide Joseph's use of a seer stone?==
 
The stone is mentioned occasionally in Church publications, but is rarely (if ever) discussed in the 21st century in venues such as Sunday School, nor is it portrayed in any Church-related artwork. Part of the reason for this is the conflation of the Nephite interpreters and the seer stone under the name "Urim and Thummim." In church, we discuss the Urim and Thummim with the assumption that it is always the instrument that Joseph recovered with the plates. Only those familiar with the sources will realize that there was more than one translation instrument.
 
That said, the Church has been very frank about the seer stone's use, though the ''product'' of the translation of the Book of Mormon is usually given much more attention that the ''process''. Note the mention of the stone in the official children's magazine, ''The Friend'' (available online at lds.org):
 
<blockquote>
"To help him with the translation, Joseph found with the gold plates “a curious instrument which the ancients called Urim and Thummim, which consisted of two transparent stones set in a rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate.” '''Joseph also used an egg-shaped, brown rock for translating called a seer stone.'''" <br>&mdash;“A Peaceful Heart,” ''Friend'', Sep 1974, 7 {{link|url=http://www.lds.org/friend/1974/09/a-peaceful-heart}}
</blockquote>
 
Text translated with the Nephite interpreters was lost with the 116 pages given to Martin Harris&mdash;see {{s||DC|3||}}.  The Church's ''Historical Record'' records Joseph's use of the seer stone to translate all of our current Book of Mormon text:
 
:As a chastisement for this carelessness [loss of the 116 pages], the Urim and Thummim was taken from Smith. But by humbling himself, he again found favor with the Lord and was presented a strange oval-shaped, chocolate colored stone, about the size of an egg, but more flat which it was promised should answer the same purpose. With this stone all the present book was translated. [Note that the chronology of Joseph's acquisition of the stone is here somewhat confused.  The use of the stone, however, is clearly indicated.]<ref>''The Historical Record. Devoted Exclusively to Historical, Biographical, Chronological and Statistical Matters'' (LDS Church Archives), 632.</ref>
 
References to the stone are not confined to the distant past.  Elder Russell M. Nelson of the Twelve Apostles described the process clearly in an ''Ensign'' article:
 
:Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.<ref>David Whitmer, ''An Address to All Believers in Christ'' (Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887), 12; cited in {{Ensign1|author=Russell M. Nelson|article=[https://www.lds.org/ensign/1993/07/a-treasured-testament?lang=eng A Treasured Testament]|date=July 1993|start=61}}</ref>
 
It would be strange to try to hide something by having an apostle talk about it, and then send the account to every LDS home in the official magazine!
 
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====Other mentions in Church materials====
Similar material is also found in other Church publications, some of which are included below:
 
* {{Ensign1|author=Richard Lloyd Anderson|article=[https://www.lds.org/ensign/1977/09/by-the-gift-and-power-of-god?lang=eng ‘By the Gift and Power of God’]|date=September 1977|start=79}}
* Hyrum Andrus, ''Joseph Smith, the Man, the Seer'' (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Company, 1960), 102. {{GL1|url=http://gospelink.com/library/contents/815}}
* {{FR-6-1-14}}<!--Hamblin-->
* {{BYUS|author=Marvin S. Hill|article=Money-Digging Folklore and the Beginnings of Mormonism: An Interpretative Suggestion|vol=24|num=4|date=Fall 1984|start=?|end=??}}{{GL|url=http://gospelink.com/library/document/90430}}
* {{IE1|author=Francis W. Kirkham|article=The Manner of Translating The BOOK of MORMON|date=1939}} {{GL1|url=http://gospelink.com/library/document/68715}}
* Joseph Fielding McConkie, Craig J. Ostler, ''Revelations of the Restoration: A Commentary on the Doctrine and Covenants and Other Modern Revelations'' (Salt Lake City, Utah: Deseret Book Co., 2000), D&C 9. {{GL1|url=http://gospelink.com/library/contents/1199}}
* {{JBMS-2-2-14}}<!--Ricks-->
* {{DFS1|article=A Brief Debate on the Book of Mormon|vol=1|start=350}}{{GL1|url=http://gospelink.com/library/doc?doc_id=205446}}
* {{BYUS1|author=Royal Skousen|article=Towards a Critical Edition of the Book of Mormon|start=52|date=Winter 1990|vol=30|num=1}}{{GL1|url=http://gospelink.com/library/document/90737}}
 
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