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Difference between revisions of "Detailed response to CES Letter, Witnesses"
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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#"It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon"|Response to section: "It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon"]] | *[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#"It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon"|Response to section: "It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon"]] | ||
| − | + | ==Magical Worldview== | |
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{{CESLetterItemShort | {{CESLetterItemShort | ||
|claim=The author states that "If Oliver Cowdery’s gift was really a divining rod then this tells us that the origins of the Church are much more involved in folk magic and superstition than we’ve been led to believe by the LDS Church’s whitewashing of its origins and history." | |claim=The author states that "If Oliver Cowdery’s gift was really a divining rod then this tells us that the origins of the Church are much more involved in folk magic and superstition than we’ve been led to believe by the LDS Church’s whitewashing of its origins and history." | ||
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{{:Doctrine and Covenants/Oliver Cowdery and the "rod of nature"}} | {{:Doctrine and Covenants/Oliver Cowdery and the "rod of nature"}} | ||
| − | + | ==Witnesses== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author claims, "We are told that the witnesses never disavowed their testimonies, but we have not come to know these men or investigated what else they said about their experiences. They are 11 individuals: Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Hiram Page, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer Jr., Hyrum Smith, Samuel Smith, and Joseph Smith Sr. – who all shared a common worldview of second sight, magic, and treasure digging – which is what drew them together in 1829. | |claim=The author claims, "We are told that the witnesses never disavowed their testimonies, but we have not come to know these men or investigated what else they said about their experiences. They are 11 individuals: Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery, Hiram Page, David Whitmer, John Whitmer, Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer Jr., Hyrum Smith, Samuel Smith, and Joseph Smith Sr. – who all shared a common worldview of second sight, magic, and treasure digging – which is what drew them together in 1829. | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| − | + | ==Martin Harris== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author states that Martin Harris "Martin Harris was anything but a skeptical witness." | |claim=The author states that Martin Harris "Martin Harris was anything but a skeptical witness." | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| − | + | ==David Whitmer== | |
[[Image:WhitmerGravestone.png|frame|right|David Whitmer's gravestone, upon which is engraved his testimony of the Book of Mormon: "The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one."]] | [[Image:WhitmerGravestone.png|frame|right|David Whitmer's gravestone, upon which is engraved his testimony of the Book of Mormon: "The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one."]] | ||
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| − | + | ==Oliver Cowdery== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author states, "Oliver Cowdery was not an objective and independent witness. As scribe for the Book of Mormon and cousin to Joseph Smith, there was a serious conflict of interest in Oliver being a witness." | |claim=The author states, "Oliver Cowdery was not an objective and independent witness. As scribe for the Book of Mormon and cousin to Joseph Smith, there was a serious conflict of interest in Oliver being a witness." | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| − | + | ==Second Sight== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=A collection of short quotes is displayed to demonstrate that the witnesses believed in "second sight," which the author calls "imagination." Among these quotes is the following: | |claim=A collection of short quotes is displayed to demonstrate that the witnesses believed in "second sight," which the author calls "imagination." Among these quotes is the following: | ||
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--> | --> | ||
| − | + | ==James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author writes, "Every single living Book of Mormon witness besides Oliver Cowdery accepted Strang’s prophetic claim of being Joseph’s true successor and joined him and his church. Additionally, every single member of Joseph Smith’s family except for Hyrum’s widow also endorsed, joined, and sustained James Strang as “Prophet, Seer, and Revelator”. What does this say about the credibility of the Book of Mormon witnesses if they were so easily duped by James Strang and his claims of being a prophet called of God to bring forth new scripture from ancient plates only to later turn out to be a fraud? | |claim=The author writes, "Every single living Book of Mormon witness besides Oliver Cowdery accepted Strang’s prophetic claim of being Joseph’s true successor and joined him and his church. Additionally, every single member of Joseph Smith’s family except for Hyrum’s widow also endorsed, joined, and sustained James Strang as “Prophet, Seer, and Revelator”. What does this say about the credibility of the Book of Mormon witnesses if they were so easily duped by James Strang and his claims of being a prophet called of God to bring forth new scripture from ancient plates only to later turn out to be a fraud? | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| − | + | ==No Document of Actual Signatures== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author states, "The closest thing we have in existence to an original document of the testimonies of the witnesses is a printer’s manuscript written by Oliver Cowdery. Every witness name on that document is not signed; they are written in Oliver’s own handwriting. Further, there is no testimony from any of the witnesses directly attesting to the direct wording and claims of the manuscript or statements in the Book of Mormon." | |claim=The author states, "The closest thing we have in existence to an original document of the testimonies of the witnesses is a printer’s manuscript written by Oliver Cowdery. Every witness name on that document is not signed; they are written in Oliver’s own handwriting. Further, there is no testimony from any of the witnesses directly attesting to the direct wording and claims of the manuscript or statements in the Book of Mormon." | ||
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|summary= | |summary= | ||
}} | }} | ||
| − | + | =="There is no evidence of any document whatsoever with the signatures of the witnesses"== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author claims that, "According to the above manuscript that Oliver took to the printer for the Book of Mormon, they were not signatures. Since there is no evidence of any document whatsoever with the signatures of the witnesses, the only real testimonies we have from the witnesses are later interviews given by them and eyewitness accounts/affidavits made by others, as shown previously....From a legal perspective, the statements of the testimonies of the Three and Eight witnesses hold no credibility or weight in a court of law..." | |claim=The author claims that, "According to the above manuscript that Oliver took to the printer for the Book of Mormon, they were not signatures. Since there is no evidence of any document whatsoever with the signatures of the witnesses, the only real testimonies we have from the witnesses are later interviews given by them and eyewitness accounts/affidavits made by others, as shown previously....From a legal perspective, the statements of the testimonies of the Three and Eight witnesses hold no credibility or weight in a court of law..." | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| − | + | =="James Strang’s claims and Voree Plates Witnesses are distinctive and more impressive compared to the Book of Mormon Witnesses"== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author claims that "James Strang’s claims and Voree Plates Witnesses are distinctive and more impressive compared to the Book of Mormon Witnesses" and that none of Strang's witnesses recanted "even after they were excommunicated from the church and estranged from Strang." | |claim=The author claims that "James Strang’s claims and Voree Plates Witnesses are distinctive and more impressive compared to the Book of Mormon Witnesses" and that none of Strang's witnesses recanted "even after they were excommunicated from the church and estranged from Strang." | ||
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</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
}} | }} | ||
| − | + | ==Martin Harris: “I did not see them as I do that pencil-case, yet I saw them with the eye of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me, though at the time they were covered over with a cloth”== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author claims that there is a discrepancy between Martin Harris' testimony in the Book of Mormon and later statements that he made. The author states: | |claim=The author claims that there is a discrepancy between Martin Harris' testimony in the Book of Mormon and later statements that he made. The author states: | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| − | + | =="the fact that all of the Book of Mormon Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer"== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author notes, "the fact that all of the Book of Mormon Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer." | |claim=The author notes, "the fact that all of the Book of Mormon Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer." | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| − | + | =="in light of their superstitions and reputations"== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author claims, "In light of the James Strang/Voree Plates witnesses, the fact that all of the Book of Mormon Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer, along with the fact that all of the witnesses were treasure hunters who believed in second sight, and in light of their superstitions and reputations…why would anyone gamble with their lives in believing in a book based on anything these guys said or claimed or what’s written on the testimonies of the Witnesses page in the Book of Mormon?" | |claim=The author claims, "In light of the James Strang/Voree Plates witnesses, the fact that all of the Book of Mormon Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer, along with the fact that all of the witnesses were treasure hunters who believed in second sight, and in light of their superstitions and reputations…why would anyone gamble with their lives in believing in a book based on anything these guys said or claimed or what’s written on the testimonies of the Witnesses page in the Book of Mormon?" | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| − | + | =="The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon Witnesses as empirical, rational, twenty-first century men"== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author claims that "The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon Witnesses as empirical, rational, twenty-first century men" | |claim=The author claims that "The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon Witnesses as empirical, rational, twenty-first century men" | ||
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}} | }} | ||
| − | + | =="It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon"== | |
{{CESLetterItem | {{CESLetterItem | ||
|claim=The author concludes, "It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon" | |claim=The author concludes, "It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon" | ||
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|summary= | |summary= | ||
}} | }} | ||
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| − | =={{Endnotes label}} | + | == == |
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#{{note|harris8}}George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, ''The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses'' (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66. | #{{note|harris8}}George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, ''The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses'' (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66. | ||
#{{note|whitmerproc1}}"David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 5:69 | #{{note|whitmerproc1}}"David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 5:69 | ||
Revision as of 20:34, 9 May 2014
- REDIRECTTemplate:Test3
Contents
- 1 Response to "Witnesses Concerns & Questions"
- 1.1 Quick Navigation
- 1.2 Magical Worldview
- 1.3 Oliver Cowdery and the "rod of nature"
- 1.4 Witnesses
- 1.5 Martin Harris
- 1.6 David Whitmer
- 1.7 Oliver Cowdery
- 1.8 Second Sight
- 1.9 James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses
- 1.10 No Document of Actual Signatures
- 1.11 "There is no evidence of any document whatsoever with the signatures of the witnesses"
- 1.12 "James Strang’s claims and Voree Plates Witnesses are distinctive and more impressive compared to the Book of Mormon Witnesses"
- 1.13 Martin Harris: “I did not see them as I do that pencil-case, yet I saw them with the eye of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me, though at the time they were covered over with a cloth”
- 1.14 "the fact that all of the Book of Mormon Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer"
- 1.15 "in light of their superstitions and reputations"
- 1.16 "The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon Witnesses as empirical, rational, twenty-first century men"
- 1.17 "It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon"
- 1.18
Response to "Witnesses Concerns & Questions"
| [[../Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions|Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions]] | A FAIR Analysis of:
[[../|Letter to a CES Director]] |
[[../Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions|Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions]] |
The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true.
—Martin Harris, shortly before his death. [1]
I have never at any time, denied that testimony or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that book as one of the three witnesses. Those who know me best, well know that I have adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do now again affirm the truth of all my statement[s], as then made and published.
—David Whitmer, seven years before his death. [2]
I wrote, with my own pen, the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages) as it fell from the lips of the Prophet Joseph, as he translated it by the gift and power of God, by the means of the Urim and Thummim, or as it is called by the book, Holy Interpreters. I beheld with my eyes, and handled with my hands, the gold plates from which it was transcribed. I also saw with my eyes and handled with my hands the Holy Interpreters. That book is true.
—Oliver Cowdery, two years before his death. [3]
It was a clear, open beautiful day, far from any inhabitants, in a remote field, at the time we saw the record, of which it has been spoken, brought and laid before us, by an angel, arrayed in glorious light, [who] ascend [descended I suppose] out of the midst of heaven. Now if this is human juggling—judge ye.
—Oliver Cowdery, November 1829. [4]
- Response to section: Magical Worldview
- Response to section: Witnesses
- Response to section: Martin Harris
- Response to section: David Whitmer
- Response to section: Oliver Cowdery
- Response to section: Second Sight
- Response to section: James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses
- Response to section: No Document of Actual Signatures
- Response to section: "There is no evidence of any document whatsoever with the signatures of the witnesses"
- Response to section: "James Strang’s claims and Voree Plates Witnesses are distinctive and more impressive compared to the Book of Mormon Witnesses"
- Response to section: Martin Harris: “I did not see them as I do that pencil-case, yet I saw them with the eye of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me, though at the time they were covered over with a cloth”
- Response to section: "the fact that all of the Book of Mormon Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer"
- Response to section: "in light of their superstitions and reputations"
- Response to section: "The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon Witnesses as empirical, rational, twenty-first century men"
- Response to section: "It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon"
Magical Worldview
Oliver Cowdery and the "rod of nature"
Summary: It is claimed that a revelation received by Joseph praised Oliver Cowdery's gift of using divining talents. It is claimed that the revelation was published in the Book of Commandments in its original form, then subsequently modified in the Doctrine and Covenants in order to hide the reference to the "rod of nature." Therefore, it is claimed that Joseph attempted to "cover up" Oliver Cowdery's work with a divining rod by changing a revelation. Critics also claim that Oliver would ask questions of his divining rod in faith and it would move in response.
Jump to details:
- Revelations in Context on history.lds.org: "Cowdery was among those who believed in and used a divining rod"
- Question: Was Oliver Cowdery a "treasure hunter and 'rodsman'?
- Question: What if the "rod of nature" was indeed a physical object such as a divining rod?
- Question: Did Joseph Smith attempt to "cover up" Oliver Cowdery's work with a divining rod by changing the wording of the revelation that became Doctrine and Covenants 8:6–8?
- Question: How was the wording of the "rod of nature" revelation that became Doctrine and Covenants 8:6–8 altered over time?
- Gospel Topics: "the Bible mentions other physical instruments used to access God’s power: the rod of Aaron, a brass serpent, holy anointing oils, the Ark of the Covenant, and even dirt from the ground mixed with saliva"
- Dallin H. Oaks (1987): "It should be recognized that such tools as the Urim and Thummim, the Liahona, seerstones, and other articles have been used appropriately in biblical, Book of Mormon, and modern times"
Witnesses
Martin Harris
David Whitmer
David Whitmer's gravestone, upon which is engraved his testimony of the Book of Mormon: "The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one."
Oliver Cowdery
Second Sight
James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses
No Document of Actual Signatures
"There is no evidence of any document whatsoever with the signatures of the witnesses"
"James Strang’s claims and Voree Plates Witnesses are distinctive and more impressive compared to the Book of Mormon Witnesses"
Martin Harris: “I did not see them as I do that pencil-case, yet I saw them with the eye of faith; I saw them just as distinctly as I see anything around me, though at the time they were covered over with a cloth”
"in light of their superstitions and reputations"
"The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon Witnesses as empirical, rational, twenty-first century men"
"It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon"
Notes
- [note] George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66.
- [note] "David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," Early Mormon Documents 5:69
- [note] Andrew Jenson, LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson History Company, 1901), 1:246.
- [note] Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, in letter dated 29 November 1829, quoted in Corenlius C. Blatchly, "THE NEW BIBLE, written on plates of Gold or Brass," Gospel Luminary 2/49 (10 Dec. 1829): 194.
- [note] George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66.
- [note] "David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," Early Mormon Documents 5:69
- [note] Andrew Jenson, LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson History Company, 1901), 1:246.
- [note] "David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," Early Mormon Documents 5:69.
- [note] Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, in letter dated 29 November 1829, quoted in Corenlius C. Blatchly, "THE NEW BIBLE, written on plates of Gold or Brass," Gospel Luminary 2/49 (10 Dec. 1829): 194.
- [note] Andrew Jenson, LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson History Company, 1901), 1:246.
- [note] George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66.