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Detailed response to CES Letter, Testimony and Spiritual Witness: Difference between revisions
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|claim=The author states, "Dunn was a General Authority of the Church for many years. He was a very popular speaker who told incredible faith-promoting war and baseball stories. Many times Dunn shared these stories in the presence of the prophet, apostles, and seventies. Stories like how God protected him as enemy machine-gun bullets ripped away his clothing, gear, and helmet without ever touching his skin and how he was preserved by the Lord. Members of the Church shared how they really felt the Spirit as they listened to Dunn’s testimony and stories.Unfortunately, Dunn was later caught lying about all his war and baseball stories and was forced to apologize to the members. He became the first General Authority to gain “emeritus” status and was removed from public Church life.What about the members who felt the Spirit from Dunn’s fabricated and false stories? What does this say about the Spirit and what the Spirit really is?" | |claim=The author states, "Dunn was a General Authority of the Church for many years. He was a very popular speaker who told incredible faith-promoting war and baseball stories. Many times Dunn shared these stories in the presence of the prophet, apostles, and seventies. Stories like how God protected him as enemy machine-gun bullets ripped away his clothing, gear, and helmet without ever touching his skin and how he was preserved by the Lord. Members of the Church shared how they really felt the Spirit as they listened to Dunn’s testimony and stories. Unfortunately, Dunn was later caught lying about all his war and baseball stories and was forced to apologize to the members. He became the first General Authority to gain “emeritus” status and was removed from public Church life.What about the members who felt the Spirit from Dunn’s fabricated and false stories? What does this say about the Spirit and what the Spirit really is?" | ||
|answer= | |answer= | ||
*{{Correct}} The author is correct that simply receiving a warm feeling about a speech or article is not enough to call it revelation or a confirmation of the spirit. One would need to properly study the issue, get an idea of what is correct, then ask for confirmation. The witness has to be consistent with other revelation and can be compared with others witness of similar events. In the case of Elder Dunn's stories, we felt good when we heard them. Boyd Packer pointed out that feelings and “spiritual” events can come from three sources: 1) your own feelings, 2) Satan, or 3) the Holy Ghost. You must use methods to properly confirm which is occurring in a particular event. | *{{Correct}} The author is correct that simply receiving a warm feeling about a speech or article is not enough to call it revelation or a confirmation of the spirit. One would need to properly study the issue, get an idea of what is correct, then ask for confirmation. The witness has to be consistent with other revelation and can be compared with others witness of similar events. In the case of Elder Dunn's stories, we felt good when we heard them. Boyd Packer pointed out that feelings and “spiritual” events can come from three sources: 1) your own feelings, 2) Satan, or 3) the Holy Ghost. You must use methods to properly confirm which is occurring in a particular event. | ||
Revision as of 02:37, 16 May 2014
Response to "Testimony & Spiritual Witness Concerns & Questions"
| [[../Kinderhook Plates and Translator & Seer Claims Concerns & Questions|Kinderhook Plates and Translator/Seer Claims Concerns & Questions]] | A FAIR Analysis of:
[[../|Letter to a CES Director]] |
[[../Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions|Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions]] |
And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? (Luke 24꞉32)
My heart was hot within me, while I was musing the fire burned: then spake I with my tongue. (Psalms 39꞉3)
What does a “burning in the bosom” mean? Does it need to be a feeling of caloric heat, like the burning produced by combustion? If that is the meaning, I have never had a burning in the bosom. Surely, the word “burning” in this scripture signifies a feeling of comfort and serenity. That is the witness many receive. That is the way revelation works.
—Dallin H. Oaks, "Teaching and Learning by the Spirit," Ensign (March 1997): 14.
—Dallin H. Oaks, "Teaching and Learning by the Spirit," Ensign (March 1997): 14.
- Response to section: "Every major religion has members who claim the same thing: God or God’s spirit bore witness to them"
- Response to section: "If God’s method to revealing truth is through feelings, it’s a pretty ineffective method"
- Response to section: "Joseph Smith received a revelation, through the peep stone in his hat, to send Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery to Toronto, Canada for the sole purpose of selling the copyright of the Book of Mormon"
- Response to section: "I saw a testimony as more than just spiritual experiences and feelings. I saw that we had evidence and logic on our side based on the correlated narrative I was fed by the Church about its origins."
- Response to section: Paul H. Dunn
- Response to section: "a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it"
- Response to section: "how can they be sure of the reliability of this same exact process in telling them that Mormonism is true?"
- Response to section: "I felt the Spirit watching 'Saving Private Ryan' and the 'Schindler’s List'. Both R-rated and horribly violent movies. I also felt the Spirit watching 'Forrest Gump' and the 'Lion King'."
- Response to section: "Why did I feel the Spirit as I listened to the stories of apostates sharing how they discovered for themselves that Mormonism is not true?"
Response Section
"Every major religion has members who claim the same thing: God or God’s spirit bore witness to them"
Do Latter-day Saints believe that members of other religions can receive a spiritual witness that their own teachings are true?
Jump to details:
- Question: How can Latter-day Saints reconcile having other people receive spiritual experiences that motivate them to believe in and become part of other religions?
- Question: Do Mormons believe that other religions can be inspired by God?
- Question: Do all other religions confirm their beliefs through spiritual witness?
- Question: Do Latter-day Saints discount the spiritual witnesses that members of other religions may receive?
- Question: Can non-Mormons feel a spiritual experience that cause them to devote themselves to service within another Church?
- Joseph Smith (1843): "I am just as ready to die in defending the rights of a Presbyterian, a Baptist, or a good man of any other denomination"
- Joseph Fielding Smith: "when the millennium comes...There will be millions of people...of all beliefs, still permitted to remain upon the face of the earth"
- Preach My Gospel: "many other nations and cultures have been blessed by those who were given that portion that God 'seeth fit that they should have'"
"If God’s method to revealing truth is through feelings, it’s a pretty ineffective method"
"Joseph Smith received a revelation, through the peep stone in his hat, to send Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery to Toronto, Canada for the sole purpose of selling the copyright of the Book of Mormon"
Attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright in Canada
Jump to details:
- Question: Are there any eyewitness accounts of the events that resulted in the trip to Canada to sell the Book of Mormon copyright?
- Question: Did Joseph Smith receive a revelation instructing him to to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon in Canada and later claim that the revelation was false?
- Question: How did the erroneous story of the attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright develop over time?
- Question: How does David Whitmer's account of the attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright compare to those of the eyewitnesses?
- Question: How did Latter-day Saint scholars respond to the attempt to sell the Book of Mormon copyright prior to Page's letter coming to light?
Paul H. Dunn
"a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it"
Question: Did Elder Boyd K. Packer suggest that we should "lie our way" into obtaining a testimony?
Introduction to Criticism
Critics of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have pointed to to certain statements from General Authorities and criticized them for the manner in which they suggest a testimony might be obtained.
For instance, the now late Elder Boyd K. Packer, an apostle, once wrote:
It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?” Oh, if I could teach you this one principle. A testimony is to be found in the bearing of it! Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man,” is as the scripture says, indeed “is the candle of the Lord.” (Prov. 20:27) [1]
Another apostle, Elder Dallin H. Oaks, has expressed similar sentiments about the obtainment of a testimony before.[2] Elder Gary E. Stevenson, another apostle, has reiterated those sentiments in print.[3]
Critics have also taken issue with a statement by Elder Neil L. Andersen, another apostle, who has counseled those seeking conviction of the truthfulness of Joseph Smith's claims to "[c]onsider recording the testimony of Joseph Smith in your own voice, listening to it regularly, and sharing it with friends. Listening to the Prophet’s testimony in your own voice will help bring the witness you seek."[4]
In the critics' point of view, these General Authorities are encouraging people to simply think and pray about the Church being true until they finally believe that it is i.e. "lie their way to faith."
Elder Packer is talking about having faith, which one must exercise before receiving a witness
Elder Packer and the other general authorities are not suggesting that a person must "lie their way" into having a testimony. Elder Packer is talking about having faith.
For instance, we read in Hebrews 11꞉1:
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
One exercises faith before one has the evidence to prove it. Elder Packer and the other authorities are simply restating the scriptural definition of "faith" in terms of "testimony."
When one exercises faith, results follow which strengthen that faith
When one exercises faith, results follow which strengthen that faith, but one has to take that first "leap of faith." One does not take a "leap of faith," unless they already have a seed of faith to begin with. Elder Packer and the other authorities are not suggesting that you should be "lying your way into" having a testimony. Attempting to "lie" your way into having a testimony would be ineffective: your testimony would not grow, and you would become increasingly frustrated.
Elder Packer makes this clear by addressing this particular concern:
It is not unusual to have a missionary say, “How can I bear testimony until I get one? How can I testify that God lives, that Jesus is the Christ, and that the gospel is true? If I do not have such a testimony, would that not be dishonest?”
Oh, if I could teach you this one principle: a testimony is to be found in the bearing of it!
Somewhere in your quest for spiritual knowledge, there is that “leap of faith,” as the philosophers call it. It is the moment when you have gone to the edge of the light and stepped into the darkness to discover that the way is lighted ahead for just a footstep or two. “The spirit of man is,” as the scripture says, indeed “the candle of the Lord” (Proverbs 20:27).
It is one thing to receive a witness from what you have read or what another has said; and that is a necessary beginning. It is quite another to have the Spirit confirm to you in your bosom that what you have testified is true. Can you not see that it will be supplied as you share it? As you give that which you have, there is a replacement, with increase!
To speak out is the test of your faith.
"how can they be sure of the reliability of this same exact process in telling them that Mormonism is true?"
"I felt the Spirit watching 'Saving Private Ryan' and the 'Schindler’s List'. Both R-rated and horribly violent movies. I also felt the Spirit watching 'Forrest Gump' and the 'Lion King'."
"Why did I feel the Spirit as I listened to the stories of apostates sharing how they discovered for themselves that Mormonism is not true?"
- ↑ Boyd K. Packer, "The Candle of the Lord," Ensign 13 (January 1983); Boyd K. Packer, "The Quest for Spiritual Knowledge," New Era 36 (January 2007). The latter source cited is a reprinting of a talk given at a seminar for new mission presidents on June 25, 1982. This was quoted in Jeremy T. Runnells, CES Letter: My Search for Answers to my Mormon Doubts (American Fork, UT: CES Letter Foundation, 2017), 78. <https://cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf>.
- ↑ Dallin H. Oaks, “Testimony,” General Conference (April 2008). “We gain or strengthen a testimony by bearing it. Someone even suggested that some testimonies are better gained on the feet bearing them than on the knees praying for them.”
- ↑ Gary E. Stevenson, "Testimony: Sharing in Word and Deed," New Era 48 (March 2019).
- ↑ Neil L. Andersen, "Joseph Smith," General Conference (October 2014). Quoted in Runnells, CES Letter, 78.