FAIR is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of the doctrine, practice, and history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Denver Snuffer"
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:The angel told… Cornelius that he must send for Peter to learn how to be saved: Peter could baptize, and angels could not, so long as there were legal officers in the flesh holding the keys of the kingdom, or the authority of the priesthood. There is one evidence still further on this point, and that is that Jesus himself when he appeared to Paul on his way to Damascus, did not inform him how he could be saved. He had set in the church firstly Apostles, and secondly prophets for the work of the ministry… and as the grand rule of heaven was that nothing should ever be done on earth without revealing the secret to his servants the prophets…. [S]o Paul could not learn so much from the [Page 196]Lord relative to his duty in the common salvation of man, as he could from one of Christ’s ambassadors called with the same heavenly calling of the Lord, and endowed with the same power from on high—so that what they loosed on earth, should be loosed in heaven; and what they bound on earth should be bound in heaven.<ref>{{TS|author=Joseph Smith|article=Baptism|vol=3|num=21|date=1 September 1842|pages=905}}</ref> | :The angel told… Cornelius that he must send for Peter to learn how to be saved: Peter could baptize, and angels could not, so long as there were legal officers in the flesh holding the keys of the kingdom, or the authority of the priesthood. There is one evidence still further on this point, and that is that Jesus himself when he appeared to Paul on his way to Damascus, did not inform him how he could be saved. He had set in the church firstly Apostles, and secondly prophets for the work of the ministry… and as the grand rule of heaven was that nothing should ever be done on earth without revealing the secret to his servants the prophets…. [S]o Paul could not learn so much from the [Page 196]Lord relative to his duty in the common salvation of man, as he could from one of Christ’s ambassadors called with the same heavenly calling of the Lord, and endowed with the same power from on high—so that what they loosed on earth, should be loosed in heaven; and what they bound on earth should be bound in heaven.<ref>{{TS|author=Joseph Smith|article=Baptism|vol=3|num=21|date=1 September 1842|pages=905}}</ref> | ||
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| + | |claim=Snuffer claims the Church has lost the fullness, but "The required priestly authority is still available through the veil."<ref>{{CriticalWork:Snuffer:Passing the Heavenly Gift|pages=468}}</ref> | ||
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| + | Snuffer claims that the Church has lost vital priesthood authority, and so ordinances do not need it, or Snuffer's followers can get it "through the veil." Joseph Smith said that the Church would never lack priesthood authority, and that if someone claimed a heavenly messenger had brought them authority, they were either: | ||
| + | #deceived by Satan; or | ||
| + | #a liar | ||
| + | :An angel, said Joseph, may administer the word of the Lord unto men, and bring intelligence to them from heaven upon various subjects; but no true angel from God will ever come to ordain any man, because they have once been sent to establish the priesthood by ordaining me thereunto; and the priesthood being once established on earth, with power to ordain others, '''no heavenly messenger will ever come to interfere with that power by ordaining any more'''…You may therefore know, from this time forward, that if any man comes to you professing to be ordained by an angel, he is either a liar or has been imposed upon in consequence of transgression by an angel of the devil, for '''this priesthood shall never be taken away from this church.'''<ref>{{MS|author=Orson Hyde|article=Although Dead, Yet He Speaketh: Joseph Smith’s testimony concerning men being ordained by angels, delivered in the school of the prophets, in Kirtland, Ohio, in the Winter of 1832–3|vol=8|num=9|date=20 November 1846|pages=138–139, emphasis added}}</ref> | ||
| + | {{more|Criticism_of_Mormonism/Books/Passing_the_Heavenly_Gift/Claims_about_priesthood_ordination#cite_ref-9|l1=Read more about the false claims that led Joseph to teach this doctrine}} | ||
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Revision as of 19:30, 18 September 2014
- REDIRECTTemplate:Test3
Contents
- 1 A FairMormon Analysis of Denver Snuffer's Online Claims
- 2 FairMormon's response
- 2.1
- 2.2 Denver Snuffer claim: "You do not need buildings to meet. Tithing is for the poor."[2]
- 2.3 FairMormon Response
- 2.4 Denver Snuffer claim: "Joseph Smith only built one building—a temple."[3]
- 2.5 FairMormon Response
- 2.6 Denver Snuffer claim: "[My book Passing the Heavenly Gift is the most correct account of our dispensation written so far...."[7]
- 2.7 FairMormon Response
- 2.8 Denver Snuffer claim: " If the Holy Ghost will visit you even without an authoritative ordinance then the responsibility to live so as to invite the Spirit is all you need to have that same companionship the ordinance could confer...."[8]
- 2.9 FairMormon Response
- 2.10 Denver Snuffer claim: "Even if you give the most optimistic assessment of the restoration and current condition of the church it can do nothing for the individual Latter-day Saint. We must all find salvation for ourselves.[10]
- 2.11 FairMormon Response
- 2.12 Denver Snuffer claim: Ordinances do not need to be performed by one with legitimate Church authority, since "the required priestly authority is still available through the veil."[12]
- 2.13 FairMormon Response
- 2.14 Denver Snuffer claim: Snuffer claims the Church has lost the fullness, but "The required priestly authority is still available through the veil."[14]
- 2.15 FairMormon Response
- 2.16
A FairMormon Analysis of Denver Snuffer's Online Claims
This set of articles comprises approximately ??? questions or sources assigned to the response to Denver Snuffer. A full list of these articles may be found here: Category:Denver Snuffer. New questions and sources are periodically added to this list.
Overview
Denver Snuffer was excommunicated for apostasy on 11 September 2013 because of the claims made in his book Passing the Heavenly Gift.[1] Following his excommunication, Snuffer has declared, among other things, that the Church's First Presidency has lost their authority, and claimed that Jesus appeared to him to instruct him. This wiki page examines his historical and other claims.
FairMormon's response
In developing our response, our primary intended audience is not necessarily Snuffer nor his associates, but rather those individuals, perhaps faithful Latter-day Saints, perhaps questioning, perhaps once-faithful but now sincerely doubting, who may have come across his teachings and been troubled by its contents.
Denver Snuffer claim:
"You do not need buildings to meet. Tithing is for the poor."[2]
FairMormon Response
The Doctrine and Covenants teaches a different doctrine. For example, tithing is commanded for the building of temples:
- 10 Verily I say unto you, that it is my will that a house should be built unto me in the land of Zion, like unto the pattern which I have given you.
- 11 Yea, let it be built speedily, by the tithing of my people. (D&C 97꞉10-11, italics added)
Likewise D&C 117꞉2-3 commands tithing for a variety of purposes:
- 2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
- 3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.
Thus, tithing is properly used for temples and other activities consistent with building the kingdom of God ("laying the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood"). Joseph Smith used tithing for such purposes throughout his administration.
"The poor" are nowhere mentioned in these commands, since the scriptures have a different mechanism for providing for them—the fast (Isaiah 58:6-7).
Denver Snuffer claim:
"Joseph Smith only built one building—a temple."[3]
FairMormon Response
This claim is false. The Doctrine and Covenants commands that consecrated Church funds be used for a variety of purposes:
- Therefore, the residue [of the funds] shall be kept in my storehouse, to administer to the poor and the needy, as shall be appointed by the high council of the church, and the bishop and his council;
- And for the purpose of purchasing lands for the public benefit of the church, and building houses of worship, and building up of the New Jerusalem which is hereafter to be revealed...(DC 42꞉34-35, italics added)
Through Joseph, the Lord directed the construction of many buildings besides temples:
- A house in Kirtland for himself[4]
- A house in Kirtland for Sidney Rigdon[5]
- "a house...for the work of the printing of the translation of my scriptures, and all things whatsoever I shall command you."[6]
- The Nauvoo House (D&C 128꞉55–75);
Denver Snuffer claim:
"[My book Passing the Heavenly Gift is the most correct account of our dispensation written so far...."[7]
FairMormon Response
Despite this grandiose claim, Snuffer's book is filled with historical errors, omissions, and misrepresentations.
Denver Snuffer claim:
"
If the Holy Ghost will visit you even without an authoritative ordinance then the responsibility to live so as to invite the Spirit is all you need to have that same companionship the ordinance could confer...."[8]
FairMormon Response
Snuffer claims that receiving the ordinance of confirmation and the gift of the Holy Ghost makes no difference. But, Joseph Smith taught the opposite:
- There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing [Page 194]power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him.[9]
Snuffer is teaching false doctrine about the Restoration.
Denver Snuffer claim:
"Even if you give the most optimistic assessment of the restoration and current condition of the church it can do nothing for the individual Latter-day Saint. We must all find salvation for ourselves.[10]
FairMormon Response
The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that some things are required from the Church for full salvation to its members. The Lord says of those who have acted wickedly:
- But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves....Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house....They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation. It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea (DC 121:17,19,21-22).
These scriptures teach that it is a great tragedy and punishment if:
- one does not receive the priesthood
- one is severed from temple ordinances
Joseph Smith always administered these things through the Church's organizational structure: they require legitimate authority, and are important, contrary to Snuffer's claims.
Just before his death, Joseph emphasized:
- I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness—a man can do nothing for himself unless God direct him in the right way, and the Priesthood is reserved for that purpose.[11]
Snuffer's efforts to dismiss the importance of the Church and its ordinances via priesthood authority lead him to preach false doctrine.
Denver Snuffer claim:
Ordinances do not need to be performed by one with legitimate Church authority, since "the required priestly authority is still available through the veil."[12]
FairMormon Response
Snuffer again contradicts Joseph Smith, who made it very clear that no ordinances would be performed by divine messengers once the authority had been conferred on mortals:
- The angel told… Cornelius that he must send for Peter to learn how to be saved: Peter could baptize, and angels could not, so long as there were legal officers in the flesh holding the keys of the kingdom, or the authority of the priesthood. There is one evidence still further on this point, and that is that Jesus himself when he appeared to Paul on his way to Damascus, did not inform him how he could be saved. He had set in the church firstly Apostles, and secondly prophets for the work of the ministry… and as the grand rule of heaven was that nothing should ever be done on earth without revealing the secret to his servants the prophets…. [S]o Paul could not learn so much from the [Page 196]Lord relative to his duty in the common salvation of man, as he could from one of Christ’s ambassadors called with the same heavenly calling of the Lord, and endowed with the same power from on high—so that what they loosed on earth, should be loosed in heaven; and what they bound on earth should be bound in heaven.[13]
Denver Snuffer claim:
Snuffer claims the Church has lost the fullness, but "The required priestly authority is still available through the veil."[14]
FairMormon Response
Snuffer claims that the Church has lost vital priesthood authority, and so ordinances do not need it, or Snuffer's followers can get it "through the veil." Joseph Smith said that the Church would never lack priesthood authority, and that if someone claimed a heavenly messenger had brought them authority, they were either:
- deceived by Satan; or
- a liar
- An angel, said Joseph, may administer the word of the Lord unto men, and bring intelligence to them from heaven upon various subjects; but no true angel from God will ever come to ordain any man, because they have once been sent to establish the priesthood by ordaining me thereunto; and the priesthood being once established on earth, with power to ordain others, no heavenly messenger will ever come to interfere with that power by ordaining any more…You may therefore know, from this time forward, that if any man comes to you professing to be ordained by an angel, he is either a liar or has been imposed upon in consequence of transgression by an angel of the devil, for this priesthood shall never be taken away from this church.[15]
Notes
- ↑ Denver Snuffer, “Yesterday,” blog post (11 September 2013), http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/09/yesterday.html
- ↑ Cited by Tim Malone, "A Few Notes from the Mesa Lecture," latterdaycommentary.blog (9 September 2014), http://latterdaycommentary.com/2014/09/09/a-few-notes-from-the-mesa-lecture/
- ↑ Cited by Tim Malone, "A Few Notes from the Mesa Lecture," latterdaycommentary.blog (9 September 2014), http://latterdaycommentary.com/2014/09/09/a-few-notes-from-the-mesa-lecture/
- ↑ "it is meet that my servant Joseph Smith, Jun., should have a house built, in which to live and translate.(DC 41꞉7).
- ↑ "it is meet that my servant Sidney Rigdon should live as seemeth him good, inasmuch as he keepeth my commandments" (DC 41꞉8).
- ↑ the second lot on the south shall be dedicated unto me for the building of a house unto me, for the work of the printing of the translation of my scriptures, and all things whatsoever I shall command you. And it shall be fifty–five by sixty–five feet in the width thereof and the length thereof, in the inner court; and there shall be a lower and a higher court. And this house shall be wholly dedicated unto the Lord from the foundation thereof, for the work of the printing, in all things whatsoever I shall command you, to be holy, undefiled, according to the pattern in all things as it shall be given unto you (DC 94꞉10-12).
- ↑ Denver Snuffer, “Current Events,” from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 26 August 2013, http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/08/current-events.html
- ↑ Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011), 460, compare also page 33.
- ↑ Joseph Smith, "For the Times and Seasons. SABBATH SCENE IN NAUVOO; March 20th 1842," Times and Seasons 3 no. 12 (15 April 1842), 752. off-site GospeLink See also Joseph Smith, Jr, Manuscript History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Documentary History). 7 vols. Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 1978, 4:555.
- ↑ Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011), 305.
- ↑ Thomas Bullock report, discourse of 14 May 1844; cited in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of Joseph Smith, 2nd Edition, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1996), 365, emphasis added.
- ↑ Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011), 468.
- ↑ Joseph Smith, "Baptism," Times and Seasons 3 no. 21 (1 September 1842), 905. off-site GospeLink
- ↑ Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011), 468.
- ↑ Orson Hyde, "Although Dead, Yet He Speaketh: Joseph Smith’s testimony concerning men being ordained by angels, delivered in the school of the prophets, in Kirtland, Ohio, in the Winter of 1832–3," Millennial Star 8 no. 9 (20 November 1846), 138–139, emphasis added.