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< Criticism of Mormonism | Books | Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church
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==Response to claim: 199 - No wheeled chariots or horses to pull them have been found in the New World== | ==Response to claim: 199 - No wheeled chariots or horses to pull them have been found in the New World== | ||
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
No wheeled chariots or horses to pull them have been found in the New World. | No wheeled chariots or horses to pull them have been found in the New World. | ||
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}} | }} | ||
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Horses}} | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Horses}} | ||
− | + | {{:Question: In what context are chariots mentioned in the Book of Mormon?}} | |
− | + | {{:Source:Gardner:SecondWitness:4:287:Mesoamerican king, litter and battle beast}} | |
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 199 - No swords or steel have been found in the New World== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | No swords or steel have been found in the New World. | |
− | | | + | |authorsources= |
− | + | No source given. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{disinformation|Swords are well-known in the New World, just not European-style swords. | ||
+ | }} | ||
* [[Book_of_Mormon/Warfare/Swords|Swords]] | * [[Book_of_Mormon/Warfare/Swords|Swords]] | ||
* [[Book of Mormon/Anachronisms/Metals#Steel|Steel in the Book of Mormon]] | * [[Book of Mormon/Anachronisms/Metals#Steel|Steel in the Book of Mormon]] | ||
* {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Steel}} | * {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Steel}} | ||
* {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Swords}} | * {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Swords}} | ||
+ | |||
+ | ==Response to claim: 200 - The Israelites of the Book of Mormon made no noticeable contribution to the native gene pool in the New World or in Polynesia== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
+ | |claim= | ||
+ | The Israelites of the Book of Mormon made no noticeable contribution to the native gene pool in the New World or in Polynesia | ||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
}} | }} | ||
+ | {{information}} | ||
+ | * [[Book of Mormon/DNA evidence]] | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 200 - Many LDS are disquieted by "how far the Book of Mormon is from reality"== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | Many LDS are disquieted by "how far the Book of Mormon is from reality" | |
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{propaganda|Only those who rely on the author for understanding how leaders and scholars have seen these issues for the last century would be disquieted. The facts provide no reason for concern. | ||
}} | }} | ||
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* [[Book of Mormon/Historicity]] | * [[Book of Mormon/Historicity]] | ||
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Most Mormons}} | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Most Mormons}} | ||
+ | |||
+ | ==Response to claim: 200 - Many LDS are disquieted by "how far the apologists have strayed from traditional Mormon beliefs"== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
+ | |claim= | ||
+ | Many LDS are disquieted by "how far the apologists have strayed from traditional Mormon beliefs" | ||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
}} | }} | ||
− | + | {{propaganda|Since when are "traditional" beliefs binding? Only beliefs anchored in revelation or scripture are of ultimate value. | |
− | {{ | ||
− | | | ||
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* Church dioramas and audio-visual productions have tended to emphasize the Mesoamerican model of the Book of Mormon—would the author have us believe that this is done against the wishes of the leaders of the Church? | * Church dioramas and audio-visual productions have tended to emphasize the Mesoamerican model of the Book of Mormon—would the author have us believe that this is done against the wishes of the leaders of the Church? | ||
+ | }} | ||
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Apologists}} | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Apologists}} | ||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 201 - The author presents a supposition that the Church has a history of ancient America may some day be de-emphasized== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | The author presents a supposition that the Church has a history of ancient America may some day be de-emphasized. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
*Brent L. Metcalf, ''New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology'' (1993). | *Brent L. Metcalf, ''New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology'' (1993). | ||
*Mark D. Thomas, ''Digging in Cumorah: Reclaiming Book of Mormon Narratives'' (1999). | *Mark D. Thomas, ''Digging in Cumorah: Reclaiming Book of Mormon Narratives'' (1999). | ||
}} | }} | ||
+ | {{propaganda|This is pure speculation. | ||
+ | }} | ||
+ | *[[Book of Mormon/Historicity]] | ||
+ | |||
====202==== | ====202==== | ||
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
* A limited Book of Mormon setting has "not been granted the church's official blessing in any way." | * A limited Book of Mormon setting has "not been granted the church's official blessing in any way." | ||
− | | | + | |authorsources= |
− | * There ''is no official geography'', so of course no official endorsement is present. | + | *No source given. |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{disinformation|There ''is no official geography'', so of course no official endorsement is present. | ||
* Sorenson's limited setting, however, was published in the Church's official magazine, the ''Ensign''. This is hardly a sign that leaders of the Church disapprove. | * Sorenson's limited setting, however, was published in the Church's official magazine, the ''Ensign''. This is hardly a sign that leaders of the Church disapprove. | ||
** {{Ensign1|author=John L. Sorenson|article=Digging into the Book of Mormon: Our Changing Understanding of Ancient America and Its Scripture, Part 1|date=September 1984|start=27}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/ensign/1984/09/digging-into-the-book-of-mormon-our-changing-understanding-of-ancient-america-and-its-scripture?lang=eng}} For second part of the article, see {{link|url=http://www.lds.org/ensign/1984/10/digging-into-the-book-of-mormon-our-changing-understanding-of-ancient-america-and-its-scripture-part-2?lang=eng}} | ** {{Ensign1|author=John L. Sorenson|article=Digging into the Book of Mormon: Our Changing Understanding of Ancient America and Its Scripture, Part 1|date=September 1984|start=27}}{{link|url=http://www.lds.org/ensign/1984/09/digging-into-the-book-of-mormon-our-changing-understanding-of-ancient-america-and-its-scripture?lang=eng}} For second part of the article, see {{link|url=http://www.lds.org/ensign/1984/10/digging-into-the-book-of-mormon-our-changing-understanding-of-ancient-america-and-its-scripture-part-2?lang=eng}} | ||
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:In contrast, if the Book of Mormon only purports to be an account of a few peoples who inhabited a portion of the Americas during a few millennia in the past, the burden of argument changes drastically. It is no longer a question of all versus none; it is a question of some versus none. In other words, in the circumstance I describe, the opponents of historicity [i.e. those who argue that the Book of Mormon is not a literally true record, as it claims] must prove that the Book of Mormon has no historical validity for any peoples who lived in the Americas in a particular time frame, a notoriously difficult exercise. You do not prevail on that proposition by proving that a particular Eskimo culture represents migrations from Asia. The opponents of the historicity of the Book of Mormon must prove that the people whose religious life it records did not live anywhere in the Americas.<ref>{{Paper:Oaks:Historicity and the Book of Mormon}}</ref> | :In contrast, if the Book of Mormon only purports to be an account of a few peoples who inhabited a portion of the Americas during a few millennia in the past, the burden of argument changes drastically. It is no longer a question of all versus none; it is a question of some versus none. In other words, in the circumstance I describe, the opponents of historicity [i.e. those who argue that the Book of Mormon is not a literally true record, as it claims] must prove that the Book of Mormon has no historical validity for any peoples who lived in the Americas in a particular time frame, a notoriously difficult exercise. You do not prevail on that proposition by proving that a particular Eskimo culture represents migrations from Asia. The opponents of the historicity of the Book of Mormon must prove that the people whose religious life it records did not live anywhere in the Americas.<ref>{{Paper:Oaks:Historicity and the Book of Mormon}}</ref> | ||
* Teaching for decades at the Church's flagship school and appearing in the ''Ensign'' are as close to "official" endorsement one is likely to get about a matter about which there is no revelation. The Church is unlikely to ''ever'' endorse any scholarly position that does not have revelatory confirmation. | * Teaching for decades at the Church's flagship school and appearing in the ''Ensign'' are as close to "official" endorsement one is likely to get about a matter about which there is no revelation. The Church is unlikely to ''ever'' endorse any scholarly position that does not have revelatory confirmation. | ||
+ | }} | ||
* [[Book_of_Mormon/Geography/New_World#Is_there_an_.22official.22_or_revealed_geography.3F|No official geography]] | * [[Book_of_Mormon/Geography/New_World#Is_there_an_.22official.22_or_revealed_geography.3F|No official geography]] | ||
* [[Book of Mormon/Geography/Statements|Statements by Church leaders regarding Book of Mormon geography]] | * [[Book of Mormon/Geography/Statements|Statements by Church leaders regarding Book of Mormon geography]] | ||
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Apologists not official}} | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Apologists not official}} | ||
+ | |||
+ | ==Response to claim: 202 - The general membership would not believe a limited Book of Mormon geography== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
+ | |claim= | ||
+ | The general membership would not believe a limited Book of Mormon geography. | ||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | Author's opinion. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{disinformation|The leaders of the Church apparently disagree, since they published John Sorenson's discussion of the same (see [[#202|p. 202]]). Elder Oaks was likewise taught such ideas at BYU in the 1950s. | ||
}} | }} | ||
+ | * [[Book of Mormon/Geography/New World/Limited Geography Theory|Book of Mormon limited geography theory]] | ||
+ | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Most Mormons}} | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 202 - Millions of Mormons believe that Lehi stands at the head of their own family pedigrees== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | Millions of Mormons believe that Lehi stands at the head of their own family pedigrees. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
}} | }} | ||
+ | {{propaganda|"Millions" may be an exaggeration. | ||
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:All from Lehi}} | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 202b - The work of LDS apologists is not discussed in any public forum sponsored by the Church== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | The work of LDS apologists is not discussed in any public forum sponsored by the Church. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{disinformation|This is false. The FairMormon Conference is discussed in the Deseret News and the Church News. | ||
}} | }} | ||
+ | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Apologists not official}} | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 202-203 - The genetic support for an Israelite presence in the New World is "slim to none"== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | The genetic support for an Israelite presence in the New World is "slim to none." | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | Author's conclusion based upon preceding chapters. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{misinformation|LDS scientists do not expect that such evidence would exist. | ||
}} | }} | ||
+ | * [[Book of Mormon/DNA evidence]] | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 203 - Apologists are unable to find an Israelite genetic signature in the islands of the Pacific== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | Apologists are unable to find an Israelite genetic signature in the islands of the Pacific. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | Author's conclusion based upon preceding chapters. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{misinformation|LDS scientists would not expect that such a signature exists. | ||
}} | }} | ||
− | == | + | * [[Book of Mormon/DNA evidence]] |
− | {{ | + | |
+ | ==Response to claim: 203 - Apologists are unable to find an Israelite genetic signature in Central America== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | Apologists are unable to find an Israelite genetic signature in Central America. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | Author's conclusion based upon preceding chapters. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{misinformation|LDS scientists would not expect that such a signature exists. | ||
}} | }} | ||
− | == | + | * [[Book of Mormon/DNA evidence]] |
− | {{ | + | |
+ | ==Response to claim: 203 - Apologists have chosen to reinterpret the statements of modern prophets regarding Book of Mormon geography== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | Apologists have chosen to reinterpret the statements of modern prophets regarding Book of Mormon geography. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{propaganda|The author needs some evidence for this statement. Apologists and scholars have always pointed out that a ''variety'' of views have been expressed by leaders and members. | ||
}} | }} | ||
+ | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Apologists}} | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 203 - Most Mormons believe that Adam and Eve were placed on the Earth 6000 years ago== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | Most Mormons believe that Adam and Eve were placed on the Earth 6000 years ago. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{misinformation|''Some'' Mormons do, but the Church has no official position on such matters. | ||
}} | }} | ||
+ | * [[Mormonism and science/Evolution]] | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 203 - Most Mormons believe that the Earth was re-colonized after the Flood== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | Most Mormons believe that the Earth was re-colonized after the Flood. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
}} | }} | ||
− | == | + | {{misinformation|''Some'' Mormons believe this, others do not. |
− | {{ | + | }} |
+ | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Flood}} | ||
+ | |||
+ | ==Response to claim: 203 - LDS apologists need to explain how people have lived in Australia and the New World separately for tens of thousands of years without evidence of a global flood having disturbed them== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | LDS apologists need to explain how people have lived in Australia and the New World separately for tens of thousands of years without evidence of a global flood having disturbed them. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | Author's opinion. | |
}} | }} | ||
+ | {{propaganda|Why must LDS apologists defend a global flood or its implications when a global flood is not an official doctrine of the Church? FairMormon is committed to the proposition that there are a ''variety'' of logical and intellectually plausible solutions to such issues, and does not believe that one must be entertained to the exclusion of others. | ||
+ | }} | ||
+ | * [[Mormonism and science/Global or local Flood]] | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 203 - BYU professors have been "compelled to shrink the scale of the assumed Israelite incursion into the Americas"== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | BYU professors have been "compelled to shrink the scale of the assumed Israelite incursion into the Americas" | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
}} | }} | ||
− | == | + | * [[Book of Mormon/Geography/New World/Limited Geography Theory|Book of Mormon limited geography theory]] |
− | {{ | + | |
+ | ==Response to claim: 204 - In 1938 Joseph Fielding Smith opposed a limited geography for the Book of Mormon== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | In 1938 Joseph Fielding Smith opposed a limited geography for the Book of Mormon. | |
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | Unspecified statement by Joseph Fielding Smith in 1938. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{propaganda|Why is this supposed to be significant? In 1984, the ''Ensign'' actually ''published'' the Limited Geography theory. | ||
}} | }} | ||
− | == | + | *[[Book of Mormon/Geography/Statements|Statements by Church leaders regarding Book of Mormon geography]] |
− | {{ | + | |
+ | ==Response to claim: 204 - The youth of the Church have been assured that the Smithsonian uses the Book of Mormon to guide their research== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | The youth of the Church have been assured that the Smithsonian uses the Book of Mormon to guide their research. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{disinformation|Any youth being told this is being misled. There is nothing in the Church curriculum that states this. Where is the author's evidence? | ||
}} | }} | ||
− | == | + | * [[Book of Mormon/Archaeology/Smithsonian statement]] |
− | {{ | + | |
+ | ==Response to claim: 204 - The Book of Mormon depicts the settlement of an area of the world that was previously unpopulated== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | The Book of Mormon depicts the settlement of an area of the world that was previously unpopulated. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
}} | }} | ||
− | == | + | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:No others}} |
− | {{ | + | |
+ | ==Response to claim: 205 - General Authorities tell members in certain areas of the world that they are the offspring of Lehi== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | General Authorities tell members in certain areas of the world that they are the offspring of Lehi. | |
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | Author's conclusion based on preceding chapters. | |
}} | }} | ||
+ | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:All from Lehi}} | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 205 - The Church disregards people's own cultural history and local mythologies== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | The Church disregards people's own cultural history and local mythologies. | |
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
}} | }} | ||
+ | *[[Latter-day Saint culture/Preserving diverse cultural traditions]] | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 205 - The Church does not officially endorse apologetic scholarship== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | The Church does not officially endorse apologetic scholarship | |
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
}} | }} | ||
− | == | + | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Apologists not official}} |
− | {{ | + | |
+ | ==Response to claim: 205 - The Church officially tells members not to attempt to link the Book of Mormon to any geographical location== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | The Church officially tells members not to attempt to link the Book of Mormon to any geographical location. | |
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{misinformation|This is incorrect. The Church emphasizes the spiritual value of the Book of Mormon, and does not encourage attempts to link its geography to a real world location. However, the Church does not tell its members not to attempt it. | ||
}} | }} | ||
+ | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Members discouraged}} | ||
+ | * [[Book of Mormon/Geography/New World#Is there an "official" or revealed geography?|Is there an "official" or revealed geography?]] | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 206 - There is no evidence of a Hebrew influence in Mesoamerica== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | There is no evidence of a Hebrew influence in Mesoamerica. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | Author's conclusion. | |
}} | }} | ||
+ | * [[Book of Mormon/Anachronisms/Hebrew and Native American languages]] | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 206 - LDS apologists believe that the "miniscule Lehite colony" had no lasting impact on the Americas== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | LDS apologists believe that the "miniscule Lehite colony" had no lasting impact on the Americas. | |
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{disinformation|LDS apologists believe that the Lehite colony had a ''cultural'' impact on the Americas, not a genetic impact. | ||
}} | }} | ||
− | == | + | * [[Book of Mormon/DNA evidence ]] |
− | {{ | + | |
+ | ==Response to claim: 206 - LDS apologists are cut off from the larger church community because of differences in their beliefs== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | LDS apologists are cut off from the larger church community because of differences in their beliefs. | |
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{propaganda|This claim is absolutely absurd. Just for example, members of FAIR include current or former bishops, elders' quorum presidents, stake presidents, mission presidents, and area authority seventies. How can these groups be described as "cut off from the larger church community"? | ||
}} | }} | ||
− | == | + | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Apologists}} |
− | {{ | + | |
+ | ==Response to claim: 206 - Millions of members feel a "familial bond" with Lehi that played a central role in their conversion to the church== | ||
+ | {{IndexClaimItemShort | ||
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | Millions of members feel a "familial bond" with Lehi that played a central role in their conversion to the church. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
}} | }} | ||
+ | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:All from Lehi}} | ||
+ | * [[Conversion and the Book of Mormon]] {{nw}} | ||
+ | * If members felt a spiritual witness of their connection to Lehi, this witness is confirmed by the findings of population genetics. | ||
+ | |||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 206-207 - The General Authorities have not found a way to detach or reinterpret the Book of Mormon from real history== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
− | + | The General Authorities have not found a way to detach or reinterpret the Book of Mormon from real history. | |
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
− | |||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | Author's opinion. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{propaganda|That is because the General Authorities believe that the events in the Book of Mormon actually happened: They are not even ''attempting'' to detach or reinterpret the Book of Mormon from "real" history. | ||
}} | }} | ||
+ | * [[Book of Mormon/Historicity]] | ||
− | == | + | ==Response to claim: 207 - The Church takes a "dim view" of scientists and intellectuals== |
− | {{ | + | {{IndexClaimItemShort |
+ | |title=Losing a Lost Tribe | ||
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− | + | The Church takes a "dim view" of scientists and intellectuals. | |
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|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
− | + | No source given. | |
+ | }} | ||
+ | {{propaganda|No, the Church takes a "dim view" of scientists and intellectuals (or any other members) who break their covenants or undermine the faith of others. | ||
}} | }} | ||
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* [[Mormonism and education/Education and belief|Education]] tends to increase, not decrease, activity rates and religious conviction in members of the Church of Jesus Christ. | * [[Mormonism and education/Education and belief|Education]] tends to increase, not decrease, activity rates and religious conviction in members of the Church of Jesus Christ. | ||
* [[Excommunication of scholars]] | * [[Excommunication of scholars]] | ||
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− | + | <!-- PLEASE DO NOT REMOVE ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE --> | |
− | + | [[en:Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church/Chapter 14]] | |
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Chapter 13 | A FAIR Analysis of: Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church A work by author: Simon G. Southerton
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No Semitic languages have been found in the New World.Author's sources: No source given.
It is important to note that we may never find traces of Hebrew language among American languages for the simple fact that the Lehite’s mother tongue all-but-disappeared shortly after their arrival in the New World. When Moroni writes about reformed Egyptian, he also explains that the “Hebrew hath been altered by us also” (Mormon 9꞉33).
Like other ancient civilizations (such as Egypt) most New World inhabitants would not have been literate. While ancient Americans had a sophisticated writing system, it is likely that knowledge of this system was limited to the civic officials or the priestly class. In the Book of Mormon we infer that training and devotion were necessary to competently master their difficult writing system. King Benjamin, for example, “caused that [his princely sons] should be taught all the languages of his fathers, that thereby they might become men of understanding” (Mosiah 1꞉3). Moroni, who had mastered the art himself, lamented that the Lord had not made the Nephites “mighty in writing” (Ether 12꞉23).
The most likely scenario is that the Lehites—who were a small incursion into a larger existing native populace—embraced the habits, culture, and language of their neighbors within a very short period after their arrival in the New World. This is what we generally find when a small group melds with a larger group. The smaller group usually takes on the traits of the larger (or, at least, the more powerful) group—not the other way around. It is not unusual, however, for at least some of the characteristics of the smaller group to show up in the larger group’s culture. Typically, however, the smaller group becomes part of the larger group with which they merge. Thus, the Lehites would have become Mesoamericans. We see, therefore, the necessity to teach the Old World language to a few elite in order to preserve, not only the traditions, but also to maintain a continuation of scribes who could read the writings of past generations.
Even with such instruction, however, the script was most likely an altered form of Egyptian—perhaps adapted to Mesoamerican scripts—and altered according to their language. This suggests that ideas and motifs that originated in the Old World were adapted to a script that could be conveyed with New World motifs, or at least New World glyphs. Under such conditions, would there be any reason to expect that we’d find “Hebrew” among the Native Americans?
The Book of Mormon text suggests that Lehite language had a relatively minor impact on the speech of the Americas. It may be that Old World languages formed a type of "elite" language, used only by a few for religious purposes.
If, however, one is persuaded that the Book of Mormon text implies that some Hebrew links should still exist, preliminary linguistic data suggest that there are some intriguing links.
For example, Dr. Brian Stubbs argues for numerous parallels between Hebrew and Uto-Aztecan. As a professional linguist, Dr. Stubbs avoids the pitfalls of amateurs who simply point at similar words between two different languages. As he points out,
Any two languages can have a few similar words by pure chance. What is called the comparative method is the linguist's tool for eliminating chance similarities and determining with confidence whether two languages are historically—that is, genetically—related. This method consists of testing for three criteria. First, consistent sound correspondences must be established, for linguists have found that sounds change in consistent patterns in related languages; for example, German tag and English day are cognates (related words), as well as German tür and English door. So one rule about sound change in this case is that German initial t corresponds to English initial d. Some general rules of sound change that occur in family after family help the linguist feel more confident about reconstructing original forms from the descendant words or cognates, although a certain amount of guesswork is always involved.
Second, related languages show parallels in specific structures of grammar and morphology, that is, in rules that govern sentence and word formation.
Third, a sizable lexicon (vocabulary list) should demonstrate these sound correspondences and grammatical parallels.
When consistent parallels of these sorts are extensively demonstrated, we can be confident that there was a sister-sister connection between the two tongues at some earlier time.[1]
A few of Stubbs' many examples are:
Hebrew/Semitic | Uto-Aztecan |
---|---|
kilyah/kolyah 'kidney' | kali 'kidney' |
baraq 'lightning' | berok (derived from *pïrok) 'lightning' |
sekem/sikm- 'shoulder' | sikum/sïka 'shoulder' |
mayim/meem 'water' | meme-t 'ocean' |
Rhodes Scholar Dr. Roger Westcott, non-LDS Professor Emeritus of Anthropology and Linguistics at Drew University, has made positive comments about Dr. Stubbs' research:
Perhaps the most surprising of all Eurasian-American linguistic connections, at least in geographic terms, is that proposed by Brian Stubbs: a strong link between the Uto-Aztecan and Afro-Asiatic (or Hamito-Semitic) languages. The Uto-Aztecan languages are, or have been, spoken in western North America from Idaho to El Salvador. One would expect that, if Semites or their linguistic kinsmen from northern Africa were to reach the New World by water, their route would be trans-Atlantic. Indeed, what graphonomic evidence there is indicates exactly that: Canaanite inscriptions are found in Georgia and Tennessee as well as in Brazil; and Mediterranean coins, some Hebrew and Moroccan Arabic, are found in Kentucky as well as Venezuela [citing Cyrus Gordon].
But we must follow the evidence wherever it leads. And lexically, at least, it points to the Pacific rather than the Atlantic coast. Stubbs finds Semitic and (more rarely) Egyptian vocabulary in about 20 of 25 extant Uto-Aztecan languages. Of the word-bases in these vernaculars, he finds about 40 percent to be derivable from nearly 500 triliteral Semitic stems. Despite this striking proportion, however, he does not regard Uto-Aztecan as a branch of Semitic or Afro-Asiatic. Indeed, he treats Uto-Aztecan Semitisms as borrowings. But, because these borrowings are at once so numerous and so well "nativized," he prefers to regard them as an example of linguistic creolization - that is, of massive lexical adaptation of one language group to another. (By way of analogy, . . . historical linguists regard the heavy importation of French vocabulary into Middle English as a process of creolization.)....
Lest skeptics should attribute these correspondences to coincidence, however, Stubbs takes care to note that there are systematic sound-shifts, analogous to those covered in Indo-European by Grimm's Law, which recur consistently in loans from Afro-Asiatic to Uto-Aztecan. One of these is the unvoicing of voiced stops in the more southerly receiving languages. Another is the velarization of voiced labial stops and glides in the same languages.[2]
While the conclusions remain tentative, some of the details of this on-going research look promising. Certainly, nothing in the linguistic evidence provides plausible arguments against the Book of Mormon narrative.
The Book of Mormon text suggests that Lehite language had a relatively minor impact on the speech of the Americas. It may be that Old World languages formed a type of "elite" language, used only by a few for religious purposes.
If, however, one is persuaded that the Book of Mormon text implies that some Hebrew links should still exist, preliminary linguistic data suggest that there are some intriguing links.
For example, Dr. Brian Stubbs argues for numerous parallels between Hebrew and Uto-Aztecan. As a professional linguist, Dr. Stubbs avoids the pitfalls of amateurs who simply point at similar words between two different languages. As he points out,
Any two languages can have a few similar words by pure chance. What is called the comparative method is the linguist's tool for eliminating chance similarities and determining with confidence whether two languages are historically—that is, genetically—related. This method consists of testing for three criteria. First, consistent sound correspondences must be established, for linguists have found that sounds change in consistent patterns in related languages; for example, German tag and English day are cognates (related words), as well as German tür and English door. So one rule about sound change in this case is that German initial t corresponds to English initial d. Some general rules of sound change that occur in family after family help the linguist feel more confident about reconstructing original forms from the descendant words or cognates, although a certain amount of guesswork is always involved.
Second, related languages show parallels in specific structures of grammar and morphology, that is, in rules that govern sentence and word formation.
Third, a sizable lexicon (vocabulary list) should demonstrate these sound correspondences and grammatical parallels.
When consistent parallels of these sorts are extensively demonstrated, we can be confident that there was a sister-sister connection between the two tongues at some earlier time.[3]
A few of Stubbs' many examples are:
Hebrew/Semitic | Uto-Aztecan |
---|---|
kilyah/kolyah 'kidney' | kali 'kidney' |
baraq 'lightning' | berok (derived from *pïrok) 'lightning' |
sekem/sikm- 'shoulder' | sikum/sïka 'shoulder' |
mayim/meem 'water' | meme-t 'ocean' |
Rhodes Scholar Dr. Roger Westcott, non-LDS Professor Emeritus of Anthropology and Linguistics at Drew University, has made positive comments about Dr. Stubbs' research:
Perhaps the most surprising of all Eurasian-American linguistic connections, at least in geographic terms, is that proposed by Brian Stubbs: a strong link between the Uto-Aztecan and Afro-Asiatic (or Hamito-Semitic) languages. The Uto-Aztecan languages are, or have been, spoken in western North America from Idaho to El Salvador. One would expect that, if Semites or their linguistic kinsmen from northern Africa were to reach the New World by water, their route would be trans-Atlantic. Indeed, what graphonomic evidence there is indicates exactly that: Canaanite inscriptions are found in Georgia and Tennessee as well as in Brazil; and Mediterranean coins, some Hebrew and Moroccan Arabic, are found in Kentucky as well as Venezuela [citing Cyrus Gordon].
But we must follow the evidence wherever it leads. And lexically, at least, it points to the Pacific rather than the Atlantic coast. Stubbs finds Semitic and (more rarely) Egyptian vocabulary in about 20 of 25 extant Uto-Aztecan languages. Of the word-bases in these vernaculars, he finds about 40 percent to be derivable from nearly 500 triliteral Semitic stems. Despite this striking proportion, however, he does not regard Uto-Aztecan as a branch of Semitic or Afro-Asiatic. Indeed, he treats Uto-Aztecan Semitisms as borrowings. But, because these borrowings are at once so numerous and so well "nativized," he prefers to regard them as an example of linguistic creolization - that is, of massive lexical adaptation of one language group to another. (By way of analogy, . . . historical linguists regard the heavy importation of French vocabulary into Middle English as a process of creolization.)....
Lest skeptics should attribute these correspondences to coincidence, however, Stubbs takes care to note that there are systematic sound-shifts, analogous to those covered in Indo-European by Grimm's Law, which recur consistently in loans from Afro-Asiatic to Uto-Aztecan. One of these is the unvoicing of voiced stops in the more southerly receiving languages. Another is the velarization of voiced labial stops and glides in the same languages.[4]
While the conclusions remain tentative, some of the details of this on-going research look promising. Certainly, nothing in the linguistic evidence provides plausible arguments against the Book of Mormon narrative.
No wheeled chariots or horses to pull them have been found in the New World.Author's sources: No source given.
The Book of Mormon mentions "chariots," which one assumes to be a wheeled vehicle. It is also claimed that no draft animals existed in the New World to pull such chariots. It should be remembered that chariots do not play a major role in the Book of Mormon. They are mentioned in the following contexts:
Quotations from Old World scriptures
Apocalyptic teachings in Old World style
Used in conjunction with horses
(It should be noted that we are not told if these chariots served a purpose in riding, or if they were for transport of goods, or if they had a ceremonial function. One assumes some sort of practicality or ritual importance in war, since they brought chariots to the siege.)
Conspicuously absent is any role of the chariot in the many journeys recorded in the Book of Mormon. Nor do horses or chariots play any role in the many Nephite wars; this is in stark contrast to the Biblical account, in which the chariots of Egypt, Babylon, and the Philistines are feared super-weapons upon the plains of Israel.
Wrote Mesoamerican expert Brant Gardner, who believes the Book of Mormon was situated in Mesoamerica:
Regardless of the reason for the presence of "horse" and "chariot" in the text, we must still deal with the question of what the original text might have meant the animal and conveyance that Joseph translated as "horse" and "chariot" to be. From this point on, all is speculation—but speculation consistent with the Mesoamerican world.
The wording describing horses and chariots is at least suggestive that the king would be transported in connection with the horse and chariot: "they should prepare his horses and chariots, and conduct him forth." "Conduct him" does not necessarily mean that Lamoni was conducted in the horse/chariot. Indeed, verse 9 mentions horses and chariots, but only the king is "conducted." It is possible that we are dealing with several ritual objects rather than a conveyance. Verse 12, however, does suggest that conveyances are available for the king and his servants; but if would be highly unusual for servants to ride in a culture where everyone walks. Riding would confer upon them the same social status as the king—not to be thought of unless chariots were so common that they were in universal use. And nothing in the text suggests that they were.
If we are dealing with a conveyance, there is a Mesoamerican possibility. A king might be conveyed in a litter, but the litters were carried by men, not pulled by animals. However, an interesting connection between the litter and an animal occurs on what has been termed a battle litter. Freidel, Schele, and Parker note:
Lintel 2 of Temple 1 shows Hasaw-Ka'an-K'awil wearing the balloon headdress of Tlaloc-Venus warfare adopted at the time of the Waxaktun conquest, and holding the bunched javelins and shield, the original metaphors for war imported from Teothuacan. He sits in majesty on the litter that carried him into battle, while above him hulks Waxkluha=un-Ubah-Kan, the great War serpent.... Graffiti drawings scratched on the walls of Tikal palaces, depicting the conjuring of supernatural beings from the Otherworld, prove that these scenes were more than imaginary events seen only by the kings. Several of these elaborate doodles show the great litters of the king with his protector beings hovering over him while he is participating in ritual. These images are not the propaganda of rulers, created in an effort to persuade the people of the reality of the supernatural events they were witnessing. They are the poorly drawn images of witnesses, perhaps minor members of lordly families, who scratched the wonders that they saw during moments of ritual into the walls of the places where they lived their lives.
Thus, Maya art represents the king riding on a litter. In battle, capturing the litter was tantamount to capturing that king's gods. However, the graffiti litters at least open the possibility that these were simply formal litters and not limited to battle context. These litters were accompanied by a "battle beast," or an animal alter ego, embodied in the regalia of the king and litter. Thus, a correct approach to a Mesoamerican battle required all three elements: king, litter, and battle beast.
If Joseph Smith, while translating, came upon an unfamiliar idea but which seemed to describe a kingly conveyance associated with an animal, would it not have seemed logical to him to describe it as a horses and chariot for the king? I see the plausible underlying conveyance as an elaborate royal litter, accompanied in peacetime by the spiritual animal associated with the king. This animal was a type of alter-ego for the king, and was called the way [pronounced like the letter "Y"]....[5]
Gardner's case may be strengthened by the mention of chariots being brought to the lengthy siege in 3 Nephi—suggesting again a possible ritual use associated with warfare.
The most frequent loan-shift applied to the horses by the native americans who first received the Spaniards was "dog". This was the case 45% of the time. Images of these conveyances associated with what appear to be dogs have been documented before. [6]
No swords or steel have been found in the New World.Author's sources: No source given.
The Israelites of the Book of Mormon made no noticeable contribution to the native gene pool in the New World or in PolynesiaAuthor's sources: No source given.
Many LDS are disquieted by "how far the Book of Mormon is from reality"Author's sources: No source given.
Many LDS are disquieted by "how far the apologists have strayed from traditional Mormon beliefs"Author's sources: No source given.
Many statements indicate that these ideas are generally not novel, and were certainly developed well before any pressure from DNA arguments—they arose from the Book of Mormon text itself.
The author presents a supposition that the Church has a history of ancient America may some day be de-emphasized.Author's sources: *Brent L. Metcalf, New Approaches to the Book of Mormon: Explorations in Critical Methodology (1993).
- Mark D. Thomas, Digging in Cumorah: Reclaiming Book of Mormon Narratives (1999).
* A limited Book of Mormon setting has "not been granted the church's official blessing in any way."Author's sources: *No source given.
Yet, the author knows that this claim is false, since he cites Jeff Lindsay on p. 185-186. Lindsay is an "apologist," and his work is cited by the Church's official website. There are also other examples of the Church using "apologetic" responses in a formal way.
The general membership would not believe a limited Book of Mormon geography.Author's sources: Author's opinion.
Millions of Mormons believe that Lehi stands at the head of their own family pedigrees.Author's sources: No source given.
The work of LDS apologists is not discussed in any public forum sponsored by the Church.Author's sources: No source given.
Yet, the author knows that this claim is false, since he cites Jeff Lindsay on p. 185-186. Lindsay is an "apologist," and his work is cited by the Church's official website. There are also other examples of the Church using "apologetic" responses in a formal way.
The genetic support for an Israelite presence in the New World is "slim to none."Author's sources: Author's conclusion based upon preceding chapters.
Apologists are unable to find an Israelite genetic signature in the islands of the Pacific.Author's sources: Author's conclusion based upon preceding chapters.
Apologists are unable to find an Israelite genetic signature in Central America.Author's sources: Author's conclusion based upon preceding chapters.
Apologists have chosen to reinterpret the statements of modern prophets regarding Book of Mormon geography.Author's sources: No source given.
Many statements indicate that these ideas are generally not novel, and were certainly developed well before any pressure from DNA arguments—they arose from the Book of Mormon text itself.
Most Mormons believe that Adam and Eve were placed on the Earth 6000 years ago.Author's sources: No source given.
Most Mormons believe that the Earth was re-colonized after the Flood.Author's sources: No source given.
LDS apologists need to explain how people have lived in Australia and the New World separately for tens of thousands of years without evidence of a global flood having disturbed them.Author's sources: Author's opinion.
BYU professors have been "compelled to shrink the scale of the assumed Israelite incursion into the Americas"Author's sources: No source given.
In 1938 Joseph Fielding Smith opposed a limited geography for the Book of Mormon.Author's sources: Unspecified statement by Joseph Fielding Smith in 1938.
The youth of the Church have been assured that the Smithsonian uses the Book of Mormon to guide their research.Author's sources: No source given.
The Book of Mormon depicts the settlement of an area of the world that was previously unpopulated.Author's sources: No source given.
General Authorities tell members in certain areas of the world that they are the offspring of Lehi.Author's sources: Author's conclusion based on preceding chapters.
The Church disregards people's own cultural history and local mythologies.Author's sources: No source given.
The Church does not officially endorse apologetic scholarshipAuthor's sources: No source given.
Yet, the author knows that this claim is false, since he cites Jeff Lindsay on p. 185-186. Lindsay is an "apologist," and his work is cited by the Church's official website. There are also other examples of the Church using "apologetic" responses in a formal way.
The Church officially tells members not to attempt to link the Book of Mormon to any geographical location.Author's sources: No source given.
Ironically, the author knows that there is no official geography (see p. 205) but continues to act as if it scandalous that the Church does not preach a non-official idea as official—perhaps hoping we will conclude that the model he describes is the official one which the Church dare not renounce.
There is no evidence of a Hebrew influence in Mesoamerica.Author's sources: Author's conclusion.
LDS apologists believe that the "miniscule Lehite colony" had no lasting impact on the Americas.Author's sources: No source given.
LDS apologists are cut off from the larger church community because of differences in their beliefs.Author's sources: No source given.
Many statements indicate that these ideas are generally not novel, and were certainly developed well before any pressure from DNA arguments—they arose from the Book of Mormon text itself.
Millions of members feel a "familial bond" with Lehi that played a central role in their conversion to the church.Author's sources: No source given.
The General Authorities have not found a way to detach or reinterpret the Book of Mormon from real history.Author's sources: Author's opinion.
The Church takes a "dim view" of scientists and intellectuals.Author's sources: No source given.
Notes
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