Difference between revisions of "Detailed response to CES Letter, Witnesses"

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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#David Whitmer|Response to section: David Whitmer]]
 
*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#David Whitmer|Response to section: David Whitmer]]
 
*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#Oliver Cowdery|Response to section: Oliver Cowdery]]
 
*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#Oliver Cowdery|Response to section: Oliver Cowdery]]
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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#Second Sight|Response to section: Second Sight]] {{InProgress}}
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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#Second Sight|Response to section: Second Sight]]
 
*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses|Response to section: James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses]] {{InProgress}}
 
*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses|Response to section: James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses]] {{InProgress}}
 
*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#No Document of Actual Signatures|Response to section: No Document of Actual Signatures]]
 
*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Letter to a CES Director/Witnesses Concerns & Questions#No Document of Actual Signatures|Response to section: No Document of Actual Signatures]]
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I have cherished a hope, and that one of my fondest, that I might leave such a character, as those who might believe in my testimony, after I should be called hence, might do so, not only for the sake of the truth, but might not blush for the private character of the man who bore that testimony. I have been sensitive on this subject, I admit; but I ought to be so—you would be, under the circumstances, had you stood in the presence of John, with our departed Brother Joseph, to receive the Lesser Priesthood—and in the presence of Peter, to receive the Greater, and looked down through time, and witnessed the effects these two must produce,—you would feel what you have never felt, were wicked men conspiring to lessen the effects of your testimony on man, after you should have gone to your long sought rest. (Oliver Cowdery to Phineas Young, 23 March 1846, Oliver Cowdery Collection, "Scriptory Book of Joseph Smith Jr." (kept by George W. Robinson), 22, LDS Church Historical Department (published in Scott H. Faulring, ed, ''An American Prophet's Record.— The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith'' (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1989), emphasis in original; cited in Scott H. Faulring.  “The Return of Oliver Cowdery”, FARMS Featured Paper, no date.)
 
I have cherished a hope, and that one of my fondest, that I might leave such a character, as those who might believe in my testimony, after I should be called hence, might do so, not only for the sake of the truth, but might not blush for the private character of the man who bore that testimony. I have been sensitive on this subject, I admit; but I ought to be so—you would be, under the circumstances, had you stood in the presence of John, with our departed Brother Joseph, to receive the Lesser Priesthood—and in the presence of Peter, to receive the Greater, and looked down through time, and witnessed the effects these two must produce,—you would feel what you have never felt, were wicked men conspiring to lessen the effects of your testimony on man, after you should have gone to your long sought rest. (Oliver Cowdery to Phineas Young, 23 March 1846, Oliver Cowdery Collection, "Scriptory Book of Joseph Smith Jr." (kept by George W. Robinson), 22, LDS Church Historical Department (published in Scott H. Faulring, ed, ''An American Prophet's Record.— The Diaries and Journals of Joseph Smith'' (Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1989), emphasis in original; cited in Scott H. Faulring.  “The Return of Oliver Cowdery”, FARMS Featured Paper, no date.)
 
</blockquote>
 
</blockquote>
 +
}}
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====Second Sight====
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{{CESLetterItem
 +
|claim=A collection of short quotes is displayed to demonstrate that the witnesses believed in "second sight," which the author calls "imagination."
 +
*“While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates.” – Martin Harris, (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71)
 +
*“I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state.” – EMD 2:346-47
 +
*“He only saw the plates with a spiritual eye” – Joseph Smith Begins His Work, Vol. 1, 1958
 +
*“As shown in the vision” – Zenas H. Gurley, Jr., Interview with David Whitmer on January 14, 1885
 +
*“Never saw the plates with his natural eyes but only in vision or imagination” – Letter from Stephen Burnett to “Br. Johnson,” April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p. 2
 +
*“I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock.” – EMD 1:497
 +
*“They were shown to me by a supernatural power” – History of the Church Vol. 3, Ch. 21, p. 307-308
 +
|answer=
 +
*The statement "I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock," is from William Smith, Joseph's brother. William Smith was never one of the three or eight witnesses who viewed the plates. The author also provided an incorrect reference for this statement (we provide the correct reference below).
 +
*The quote by the author of ''EMD'' 1:497 is from "William Smith, On Mormonism, 1883," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 1:497. Joseph's brother William Smith was not one of the three or eight witnesses. The quote that the author attributes to this passage does not exist within this document.
 +
<blockquote>
 +
However, he escaped to the house and brought the plates with him, <span style="color:blue">wrapped up in a tow frock. He could not permit us to see them, because he said the angel told him not to do so</span>, and he was determined to obey strictly this time, for he had disobeyed before and was compelled to wait four years before he could come into possession of the plates.
 +
<br><br>
 +
In consequence of his vision, and his having the golden plates and refusing to show them, a great persecution arose against the whole family, and he was compelled to remove into Pennsylvania with the plates, where he translated them by means of the Urim and Thummim. . . . He then showed the plates to my father and my brothers Hyrum and Samuel, who were witnesses to the truth of the book which was translated from them. I was permitted to lift them as they laid in a pillow-case; but not to see them, as it was contrary to the commands he had received. They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgment.
 +
</blockquote>
 +
*We did, however, find the author's William Smith quote in  "William Smith Interview with E. C. Briggs, 1893," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 1:511. However, we once again note that ''William Smith was not one of the three or eight witnesses'':
 +
<blockquote>
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Bro. Briggs then handed me a pencil and asked Bro. Smith if he ever saw the plates his brother had had, from which the Book of Mormon was translated.
 +
<br><br>
 +
He replied, <span style="color:blue">"I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock</span> and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. I could tell they were plates of some kind and that they were fastened together by rings running through the back. Their size was as described in mother's history."
 +
</blockquote>
 +
*"Martin Harris Interview with Anthony Metcalf," Circa 1873-1874, ''Early Mormon Documents'' 5:346-347:
 +
<blockquote>
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Following is the history as related to me, including all his connections with Joseph Smith, the pretended prophet and the founder of the Mormon chjurch: He told me all about the translating of the Book of Mormon, and said he had given $5,000 towards its publication. He said <span style="color:blue">"I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state.</span> I wrote a great deal of the Book of Mormon myself, as Joseph Smith translated or spelled the words out in English. Sometimes the plates would be on the table in the room in which Smith did the translating, covered over with a cloth. I was told by Joseph Smith that God would strike him dead if he attempted to look at them, and I believed it. When the time came for the three witnesses to see the plates, Joseph Smith, myself, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, went into the woods to pray. When they had all engaged in prayer, they failed at that time to see the plates or the angel who should have been on hand to exhibit them. They all believed it was because I was not good enough, or, in other words, not sufficiently sanctified. I withdrew,. As soon as I had gone away, the three others saw the angel and the plates. In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. <span style="color:blue">While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates."</span>"
 +
</blockquote>
 +
*"Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 April 1838," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 5:290-293:
 +
<blockquote>
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...but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he <span style="color:blue">never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination</span>, neither Oliver [Cowdery] nor David [Whitmer] & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations was sapped & the entire superstructure fell a heap of ruins...
 +
</blockquote>
 +
|link=Book of Mormon/Witnesses/Spiritual or literal
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|subject=Were the experiences of the witnesses spiritual or literal?
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|summary=Some critics suggest that the witnesses’ encounter with the angel and the plates took place solely in their minds. They claim that witnesses saw the angel in a “vision” and equate “vision” with imagination.
 
}}
 
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{{CESLetterItem
 
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|claim=A collection of short quotes is displayed to demonstrate that the witnesses believed in "second sight," which the author calls "imagination."
 
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*“While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates.” – Martin Harris, (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71)
 
−
*“I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state.” – EMD 2:346-47
 
−
*“He only saw the plates with a spiritual eye” – Joseph Smith Begins His Work, Vol. 1, 1958
 
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*“As shown in the vision” – Zenas H. Gurley, Jr., Interview with David Whitmer on January 14, 1885
 
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*“Never saw the plates with his natural eyes but only in vision or imagination” – Letter from Stephen Burnett to “Br. Johnson,” April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p. 2
 
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*“I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock.” – EMD 1:497
 
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*“They were shown to me by a supernatural power” – History of the Church Vol. 3, Ch. 21, p. 307-308
 
−
|answer=
 
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*"Martin Harris Interview with Anthony Metcalf," Circa 1873-1874, ''Early Mormon Documents'' 5:346-347:
 
−
<blockquote>
 
−
Following is the history as related to me, including all his connections with Joseph Smith, the pretended prophet and the founder of the Mormon chjurch: He told me all about the translating of the Book of Mormon, and said he had given $5,000 towards its publication. He said <span style="color:blue">"I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state.</span> I wrote a great deal of the Book of Mormon myself, as Joseph Smith translated or spelled the words out in English. Sometimes the plates would be on the table in the room in which Smith did the translating, covered over with a cloth. I was told by Joseph Smith that God would strike him dead if he attempted to look at them, and I believed it. When the time came for the three witnesses to see the plates, Joseph Smith, myself, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery, went into the woods to pray. When they had all engaged in prayer, they failed at that time to see the plates or the angel who should have been on hand to exhibit them. They all believed it was because I was not good enough, or, in other words, not sufficiently sanctified. I withdrew,. As soon as I had gone away, the three others saw the angel and the plates. In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. <span style="color:blue">While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates."</span>"
 
−
</blockquote>
 
−
*"Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 April 1838," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 5:290-293:
 
−
<blockquote>
 
−
...but when I came to hear Martin Harris state in public that he <span style="color:blue">never saw the plates with his natural eyes only in vision or imagination</span>, neither Oliver [Cowdery] nor David [Whitmer] & also that the eight witnesses never saw them & hesitated to sign that instrument for that reason, but were persuaded to do it, the last pedestal gave way, in my view our foundations was sapped & the entire superstructure fell a heap of ruins...
 
−
</blockquote>
 
−
*The quote by the author of ''EMD'' 1:497 is from "William Smith, On Mormonism, 1883," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 1:497. Joseph's brother William Smith was not one of the three or eight witnesses. The quote that the author attributes to this passage does not exist within this document.
 
−
<blockquote>
 
−
However, he escaped to the house and brought the plates with him, <span style="color:blue">wrapped up in a tow frock. He could not permit us to see them, because he said the angel told him not to do so</span>, and he was determined to obey strictly this time, for he had disobeyed before and was compelled to wait four years before he could come into possession of the plates.
 
−
<br><br>
 
−
In consequence of his vision, and his having the golden plates and refusing to show them, a great persecution arose against the whole family, and he was compelled to remove into Pennsylvania with the plates, where he translated them by means of the Urim and Thummim. . . . He then showed the plates to my father and my brothers Hyrum and Samuel, who were witnesses to the truth of the book which was translated from them. I was permitted to lift them as they laid in a pillow-case; but not to see them, as it was contrary to the commands he had received. They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgment.
 
−
</blockquote>
 
−
*We did, however, find the author's William Smith quote in  "William Smith Interview with E. C. Briggs, 1893," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 1:511. However, we once again note that ''William Smith was not one of the three or eight witnesses'':
 
−
<blockquote>
 
−
Bro. Briggs then handed me a pencil and asked Bro. Smith if he ever saw the plates his brother had had, from which the Book of Mormon was translated.
 
−
<br><br>
 
−
He replied, <span style="color:blue">"I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock</span> and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. I could tell they were plates of some kind and that they were fastened together by rings running through the back. Their size was as described in mother's history."
 
−
</blockquote>
 
−
|link=Book of Mormon/Witnesses/Spiritual or literal
 
−
|subject=Were the experiences of the witnesses spiritual or literal?
 
−
|summary=Some critics suggest that the witnesses’ encounter with the angel and the plates took place solely in their minds. They claim that witnesses saw the angel in a “vision” and equate “vision” with imagination.
 
−
}}
 
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==== ====
 
==== ====
 
{{CESLetterItem
 
{{CESLetterItem

Revision as of 20:30, 30 July 2013

  1. REDIRECTTemplate:Test3


[[../Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions|Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions]]
A FAIR Analysis of:
[[../|Letter to a CES Director]]
 		[[../Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions|Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions]]


A FAIR Analysis of the online document Letter to a CES Director section "Witnesses Concerns & Questions"

The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true.
—Martin Harris, shortly before his death. [1]
I have never at any time, denied that testimony or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that book as one of the three witnesses. Those who know me best, well know that I have adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do now again affirm the truth of all my statement[s], as then made and published.
—David Whitmer, seven years before his death. [2]
I wrote, with my own pen, the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages) as it fell from the lips of the Prophet Joseph, as he translated it by the gift and power of God, by the means of the Urim and Thummim, or as it is called by the book, Holy Interpreters. I beheld with my eyes, and handled with my hands, the gold plates from which it was transcribed. I also saw with my eyes and handled with my hands the Holy Interpreters. That book is true.
—Oliver Cowdery, two years before his death. [3]
∗       ∗       ∗

Quick Navigation

Response Section

Magical Worldview

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Witnesses

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Martin Harris

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David Whitmer

David Whitmer's gravestone, upon which is engraved his testimony of the Book of Mormon: "The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one."

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Oliver Cowdery

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Second Sight

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No Document of Actual Signatures

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"in light of their superstitions and reputations"

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"The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon Witnesses as empirical, rational, twenty-first century men"

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== Notes ==

  1. [note] George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66.
  2. [note] "David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," Early Mormon Documents 5:69
  3. [note] Andrew Jenson, LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson History Company, 1901), 1:246.
  4. [note] George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66.
  5. [note] "David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," Early Mormon Documents 5:69
  6. [note] Andrew Jenson, LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson History Company, 1901), 1:246.
  7. [note] "David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," Early Mormon Documents 5:69.
  8. [note] Andrew Jenson, LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson History Company, 1901), 1:246.
  9. [note] George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66.
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