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Difference between revisions of "Detailed response to CES Letter, Witnesses"
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====Second Sight==== | ====Second Sight==== | ||
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| − | |claim=A collection of short quotes is displayed to demonstrate that the witnesses believed in "second sight," which the author calls "imagination." | + | |claim=A collection of short quotes is displayed to demonstrate that the witnesses believed in "second sight," which the author calls "imagination." Among these quotes is the following: |
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*“I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock.” – EMD 1:497 | *“I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock.” – EMD 1:497 | ||
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|answer= | |answer= | ||
| − | *The statement "I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock," is from William Smith, Joseph's brother. William Smith was never one of the three or eight witnesses who viewed the plates. The author also provided an incorrect reference for this statement (we provide the correct reference below). | + | *The statement "I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock," is from William Smith, Joseph's brother. William Smith was never one of the three or eight witnesses who viewed the plates. He was only allowed to view and pick up the plates when they were covered. How does this demonstrate "second sight"? |
| − | *The | + | *The author also provided an incorrect reference for this statement (we provide the correct reference below). |
| + | *The reference given by the author is ''EMD'' 1:497, which is "William Smith, On Mormonism, 1883," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 1:497. The quote that the author attributes to this passage does not exist within this document, however, William makes a similar statement in this passage. | ||
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
However, he escaped to the house and brought the plates with him, <span style="color:blue">wrapped up in a tow frock. He could not permit us to see them, because he said the angel told him not to do so</span>, and he was determined to obey strictly this time, for he had disobeyed before and was compelled to wait four years before he could come into possession of the plates. | However, he escaped to the house and brought the plates with him, <span style="color:blue">wrapped up in a tow frock. He could not permit us to see them, because he said the angel told him not to do so</span>, and he was determined to obey strictly this time, for he had disobeyed before and was compelled to wait four years before he could come into possession of the plates. | ||
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In consequence of his vision, and his having the golden plates and refusing to show them, a great persecution arose against the whole family, and he was compelled to remove into Pennsylvania with the plates, where he translated them by means of the Urim and Thummim. . . . He then showed the plates to my father and my brothers Hyrum and Samuel, who were witnesses to the truth of the book which was translated from them. I was permitted to lift them as they laid in a pillow-case; but not to see them, as it was contrary to the commands he had received. They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgment. | In consequence of his vision, and his having the golden plates and refusing to show them, a great persecution arose against the whole family, and he was compelled to remove into Pennsylvania with the plates, where he translated them by means of the Urim and Thummim. . . . He then showed the plates to my father and my brothers Hyrum and Samuel, who were witnesses to the truth of the book which was translated from them. I was permitted to lift them as they laid in a pillow-case; but not to see them, as it was contrary to the commands he had received. They weighed about sixty pounds according to the best of my judgment. | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| − | *We did, however, find the author's William Smith quote in "William Smith Interview with E. C. Briggs, 1893," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 1:511. However, we once again note that ''William Smith was not one of the three or eight witnesses'': | + | *We did, however, find the author's actual William Smith quote in "William Smith Interview with E. C. Briggs, 1893," ''Early Mormon Documents'' 1:511. However, we once again note that ''William Smith was not one of the three or eight witnesses'': |
<blockquote> | <blockquote> | ||
Bro. Briggs then handed me a pencil and asked Bro. Smith if he ever saw the plates his brother had had, from which the Book of Mormon was translated. | Bro. Briggs then handed me a pencil and asked Bro. Smith if he ever saw the plates his brother had had, from which the Book of Mormon was translated. | ||
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He replied, <span style="color:blue">"I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock</span> and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. I could tell they were plates of some kind and that they were fastened together by rings running through the back. Their size was as described in mother's history." | He replied, <span style="color:blue">"I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock</span> and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. I could tell they were plates of some kind and that they were fastened together by rings running through the back. Their size was as described in mother's history." | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
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| + | {{CESLetterItem | ||
| + | |claim=A collection of short quotes is displayed to demonstrate that the witnesses believed in "second sight," which the author calls "imagination." | ||
| + | *“While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates.” – Martin Harris, (Anthony Metcalf, Ten Years Before the Mast, n.d., microfilm copy, p. 70-71) | ||
| + | *“I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state.” – EMD 2:346-47 | ||
| + | *“He only saw the plates with a spiritual eye” – Joseph Smith Begins His Work, Vol. 1, 1958 | ||
| + | *“As shown in the vision” – Zenas H. Gurley, Jr., Interview with David Whitmer on January 14, 1885 | ||
| + | *“Never saw the plates with his natural eyes but only in vision or imagination” – Letter from Stephen Burnett to “Br. Johnson,” April 15, 1838, in Joseph Smith Letter Book, p. 2 | ||
| + | *“They were shown to me by a supernatural power” – History of the Church Vol. 3, Ch. 21, p. 307-308 | ||
*"Martin Harris Interview with Anthony Metcalf," Circa 1873-1874, ''Early Mormon Documents'' 5:346-347: | *"Martin Harris Interview with Anthony Metcalf," Circa 1873-1874, ''Early Mormon Documents'' 5:346-347: | ||
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|summary=Some critics suggest that the witnesses’ encounter with the angel and the plates took place solely in their minds. They claim that witnesses saw the angel in a “vision” and equate “vision” with imagination. | |summary=Some critics suggest that the witnesses’ encounter with the angel and the plates took place solely in their minds. They claim that witnesses saw the angel in a “vision” and equate “vision” with imagination. | ||
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====No Document of Actual Signatures==== | ====No Document of Actual Signatures==== | ||
Revision as of 07:59, 31 July 2013
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| [[../Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions|Priesthood Restoration Concerns & Questions]] | A FAIR Analysis of:
[[../|Letter to a CES Director]] |
[[../Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions|Temples & Freemasonry Concerns & Questions]] |
A FAIR Analysis of the online document Letter to a CES Director section "Witnesses Concerns & Questions"
The Book of Mormon is no fake. I know what I know. I have seen what I have seen and I have heard what I have heard. I have seen the gold plates from which the Book of Mormon is written. An angel appeared to me and others and testified to the truthfulness of the record, and had I been willing to have perjured myself and sworn falsely to the testimony I now bear I could have been a rich man, but I could not have testified other than I have done and am now doing for these things are true.
—Martin Harris, shortly before his death. [1]
I have never at any time, denied that testimony or any part thereof, which has so long since been published with that book as one of the three witnesses. Those who know me best, well know that I have adhered to that testimony. And that no man may be misled or doubt my present views in regard to the same, I do now again affirm the truth of all my statement[s], as then made and published.
—David Whitmer, seven years before his death. [2]
I wrote, with my own pen, the entire Book of Mormon (save a few pages) as it fell from the lips of the Prophet Joseph, as he translated it by the gift and power of God, by the means of the Urim and Thummim, or as it is called by the book, Holy Interpreters. I beheld with my eyes, and handled with my hands, the gold plates from which it was transcribed. I also saw with my eyes and handled with my hands the Holy Interpreters. That book is true.
—Oliver Cowdery, two years before his death. [3]
- Response to section: Magical Worldview
- Response to section: Witnesses
- Response to section: Martin Harris
- Response to section: David Whitmer
- Response to section: Oliver Cowdery
- Response to section: Second Sight
- Response to section: James Strang and the Voree Plates Witnesses [Work in Progress]
- Response to section: No Document of Actual Signatures
- Response to section: "James Strang’s claims and Voree Plates Witnesses are distinctive and more impressive compared to the Book of Mormon Witnesses" [Work in Progress]
- Response to section: "the fact that all of the Book of Mormon Witnesses – except Martin Harris – were related to either Joseph Smith or David Whitmer"
- Response to section: "in light of their superstitions and reputations"
- Response to section: "The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon Witnesses as empirical, rational, twenty-first century men"
- Response to section: "It doesn’t matter because of this one simple fact: Joseph did not use the gold plates for translating the Book of Mormon" [Work in Progress]
Response Section
Magical Worldview
Witnesses
Martin Harris
David Whitmer
David Whitmer's gravestone, upon which is engraved his testimony of the Book of Mormon: "The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one."
Oliver Cowdery
Second Sight
No Document of Actual Signatures
"in light of their superstitions and reputations"
"The mistake that is made by 21st century Mormons is that they’re seeing the Book of Mormon Witnesses as empirical, rational, twenty-first century men"
==
Notes
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- [note] George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66.
- [note] "David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," Early Mormon Documents 5:69
- [note] Andrew Jenson, LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson History Company, 1901), 1:246.
- [note] George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66.
- [note] "David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," Early Mormon Documents 5:69
- [note] Andrew Jenson, LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson History Company, 1901), 1:246.
- [note] "David Whitmer Proclamation, 19 March 1881," Early Mormon Documents 5:69.
- [note] Andrew Jenson, LDS Biographical Encyclopedia (Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson History Company, 1901), 1:246.
- [note] George Godfrey, “Testimony of Martin Harris,” from an unpublished manuscript copy in the possession of his daughter, Florence (Godfrey) Munson of Fielding, Utah; quoted in Eldin Ricks, The Case of the Book of Mormon Witnesses (Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1971), 65–66.