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Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon: Difference between revisions
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*[[Criticism of Mormonism/Websites/MormonThink/Moroni's Visitation#"The evil men that were conspiring to alter the original documents could not have done so without it being very obvious"|Response to claim: "The evil men that were conspiring to alter the original documents could not have done so without it being very obvious"]] | |||
=="The evil men that were conspiring to alter the original documents could not have done so without it being very obvious"== | =="The evil men that were conspiring to alter the original documents could not have done so without it being very obvious"== | ||
Revision as of 15:40, 15 May 2014
Response to MormonThink page "The Lost 116 Pages of the Book of Mormon"
| Could Joseph Smith have written the Book of Mormon | A FAIR Analysis of: MormonThink A work by author: Anonymous
|
Moroni's Visitation |
Sub-articles
Source and link analysis
Summary: A examination of the sources and links used on the critical webpage.Source quotes without critical commentary
Summary: If you would like to read all of the source quotes without wading through all of the "Critic's comments," "Apologetic rebuttals" and "Our Thoughts" sections, we present the critical web page as it would appear if only the source quotes were provided without any additional commentary. We also try to provide accurate references and direct links to the original source text rather than simply linking to other websites where you have to search for them."The evil men that were conspiring to alter the original documents could not have done so without it being very obvious"
MormonThink states...
"The official story taught and recorded by the church is nonsensical for the following reasons:
The evil men that were conspiring to alter the original documents could not have done so without it being very obvious that the original document was altered. When Martin Harris was scribing for Joseph, he didn't use a pencil and paper. Martin wrote with ink on foolscap. Any alteration would be very noticeable and not convincing to anyone.
In addition to the rubbing out of old words and rewriting of new words, the handwriting would have been different. Any rudimentary handwriting inspection would have determined that it had been altered, especially easy to determine given that the new handwriting would have occurred in the same spot as the rubbed-out and re-written words."
"The official story taught and recorded by the church is nonsensical for the following reasons:
The evil men that were conspiring to alter the original documents could not have done so without it being very obvious that the original document was altered. When Martin Harris was scribing for Joseph, he didn't use a pencil and paper. Martin wrote with ink on foolscap. Any alteration would be very noticeable and not convincing to anyone.
In addition to the rubbing out of old words and rewriting of new words, the handwriting would have been different. Any rudimentary handwriting inspection would have determined that it had been altered, especially easy to determine given that the new handwriting would have occurred in the same spot as the rubbed-out and re-written words."
FairMormon Response
The lost 116 pages of the Book of Mormon manuscript
Jump to details:
- Question: Was Joseph Smith afraid to reproduce the text of the lost 116 pages of Book of Mormon manuscript because he could not do so?
- Question: Would alterations in a different handwriting to the stolen 116 pages of Book of Mormon manuscript have been readily apparent?
- Don Bradley, "Piercing the Veil: Temple Worship in the Lost 116 Pages"
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
For example, they could have changed some names of people or places or altered events that are central to the beginning of the Book of Mormon and thereby prove that Joseph's new translation was in error. If they really thought their alterations would have gone unnoticed they could have changed the names of Nephi's brothers or the cities they came from or many other items that would have been included in both sets of plates. But they never did this - why? If opponents of the Church really had the lost 116 pages as Joseph claimed, they would have resurfaced in some form to at least attempt to discredit Joseph, even if they would not have been successful.
FairMormon commentary
- This theory presumes that after Joseph refused to retranslate them, the conspirator(s) decided to destroy the pages.
- It is easy, as this demonstrates, to spin theories about what "should have" or "would have" happened in the complete absence of any evidence. That the 116 pages existed cannot be doubted. Everything besides that is speculation.
FairMormon commentary
- The author is making mutually exclusive claims: —When critics need an attack against the Church, any excuse will do, even if they are mutually self-contradictory: if one argument is true, the other cannot be.
It is interesting to note that when critics on MormonThink discuss how Joseph created the Book of Mormon, that Joseph's memory is assumed to have been phenomenal—enough to memorize sufficient material to dictate in the open with the stone and the hat. Yet, when talking of the lost 116 pages, Joseph's memory "would hardly be adequate" to recreate the lost 116 pages.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
4.It is convenient that the prophets of old just happened to make an extra set of plates 1500 years ago to cover this contingency, isn't it? Not only are the 116 pages lost, we have an explanation of how it was fixed right in the document itself written thousands of years before the event happened.
FairMormon commentary
- Given the descriptions of the translation process by various witnesses, it is apparent that the translation proceeded in a very linear fashion. Each day Joseph would pick up the translation where he had left off the day before, without any recital of the previously written text. It is inconsistent for the critics to believe that Joseph was capable of dictating in this manner, and yet could not have easily dictated an alternate text to replace that which was lost. For the believer, it is much easier to accept that the Lord, in His wisdom, knew of the problem that would occur and provided an alternate text.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Critic's response.
First of all Mark Hofmann was caught. Even the Tanners (the biggest enemies of the Church) said his 'Salamander letter' was a forgery but it STILL fooled the Church leaders.
Although it would be possible for a master forger to forge the documents in the early 1800s, what are the odds that either one of the evil men trying to bring down Joseph was either a master forger or had access to a master forger? It's not a common skill and since money wasn't the motive, how could they pay for a skilled forger to even begin this kind of undertaking?
FairMormon commentary
- This again completely ignores the problem of publishing the pages and swearing via affidavit that the transcription was correct. Such a tactic would be far more plausible if one was known or strongly suspected to have access to the originals (as Lucy Harris did).
- Again, why did Joseph's allies and family find this scenario persuasive, then? The critics require all of them to be nothing but idiotic, gullible dupes to fall for Joseph's explanation. If they found it persuasive in their time and place, if we do not then that probably shows that we are missing something.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
But even if that were possible and they found a very skilled forger in the 1820s, Martin Harris would have simply said that it was not his handwriting and he did not write those pages. Martin lived for many decades after the Book of Mormon was published and he would have refuted it. If he simply said he didn't write those pages, as presented by the evil-doers, the whole attempt would have been one of the weakest arguments against the church - hardly Satan's master plan.
FairMormon commentary
- The author is using mocking language and hyperbole to try to make his or her point —The critic intentionally exaggerates claims in order to mock believers.
When has the loss of the 116 pages ever been claimed to be "Satan's master plan?" - This again completely ignores the problem of publishing the pages and swearing via affidavit that the transcription was correct. Such a tactic would be far more plausible if one was known or strongly suspected to have access to the originals (as Lucy Harris did).
- Again, why did Joseph's allies and family find this scenario persuasive, then? The critics require all of them to be nothing but idiotic, gullible dupes to fall for Joseph's explanation. If they found it persuasive in their time and place, if we do not then that probably shows that we are missing something.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FAIR believes that the whole lost 116 pages episode was all meant to be a lesson in humility for Joseph. But FAIR didn't even attempt to explain about the 'evil men', their foolhardy plan, what happened to the manuscript and why didn't the evil men attempt to discredit Smith or do something (anything) with the manuscript. FAIR's explanation simply falls short in trying to explain why Joseph apparently made up the story about the evil men when the evidence is heavily weighted against these evil men even existing.
FairMormon commentary
- Wait a minute...why would FAIR try to "explain why Joseph apparently made up the story?"
- Why would FAIR attempt to explain the "evil men?"—everything that we know about them is what is stated in the D&C. Are we supposed to speculate on this?
- The bottom line is that the Lord used this experience to teach Joseph an important lesson with the loss of the manuscript, and He provided an alternate text to compensate.
- FAIR thought it obvious that a holograph manuscript was not an absolute requirement for the plan to cause serious problems. Having now spelled it out explicitly and repeatedly, it will be interesting to see if MormonThink adjusts their argument.
Quotes to consider
And behold, how oft you have transgressed the commandments and the laws of God, and have gone on in the persuasions of men. For, behold, you should not have feared man more than God. Although men set at naught the counsels of God, and despise his words— Yet you should have been faithful; and he would have extended his arm and supported you against all the fiery darts of the adversary; and he would have been with you in every time of trouble. Behold, thou art Joseph, and thou wast chosen to do the work of the Lord, but because of transgression, if thou art not aware thou wilt fall. But remember, God is merciful; therefore, repent of that which thou hast done which is contrary to the commandment which I gave you, and thou art still chosen, and art again called to the work.
Additional information
- The lost 116 pages—It is claimed that Joseph Smith did not retranslate the 116 lost pages of the Book of Lehi because he knew that he could not reproduce the exact same text. They claim that alterations in a different handwriting to the stolen manuscript would have been readily apparent. (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Ending summary by critics
The lost pages could not have been altered without detection. The lost pages never resurfaced and were very likely burned by Martin Harris's wife. In reality, the lost 116 pages were never produced and what Smith and God had feared never happened. If Harris's wife had really thrown them in the fire, then what would have been the problem with Smith just re-translating them from the beginning again? If the pages were not destroyed, they would have resurfaced at some point because they could still be altered to discredit Smith. But they never resurfaced either because they were destroyed early on by Mrs. Harris or because there were no evil men standing by to alter the pages. Either way, the story about Satan's plan to discredit the prophet was apparently made up by Smith to cover himself. What ultimately happened is exactly what you would expect if Joseph was making up the Book of Mormon. The pages were lost and needed to be redone - it would be a similar story told a little differently.
FairMormon commentary
- Or, the pages were simply lost, just like many other documents from that time.
- Have you ever looked at one of these original manuscripts? They are full of strikeouts and changes.
- Yet, you don't even need the original manuscript to alter the words—all you need to do is publish an altered version of the words. However, when the Book of Mormon was published, the new text bore no resemblance whatsoever to the text of the 116 lost pages, so this option was no longer of any value to anyone who might have wanted to do such a thing. If the original pages were not destroyed, then they were certainly lost.
FairMormon commentary
- The author is using mocking language and hyperbole to try to make his or her point —The critic intentionally exaggerates claims in order to mock believers.
There is lot of mockery of God going on here. The critics obviously consider a belief in God to be silly. - God didn't change his mind—He decided to let Joseph learn a valuable lesson—a lesson that is still taught in Church to this day.
- How many of you that are parents listen to your children ask for something that they shouldn't over and over again? Do you sometimes go ahead and let them learn for themselves why it wasn't a good idea? Did you "change your mind" about whether it ever really was a good idea or not? We don't think so.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
A further thought - combining the lost 116 pages with the translation process.
1) God foresaw the loss of the 116 pages and in his infinite wisdom 1500 years prior had a 2nd set of plates made, covering the same time period.
...and...
2) JS "translated" the BOM by putting his face in a hat and seeing the English words which he then dictated to the scribe. The actual golden plates were not "read" and were often not even in the same room.
So put the lame 116-page explanation together with the nonsensical translation of plates without the presence of plates and we have...
God going to extraordinary lengths to have SECOND set of plates made so that they could NOT be used, in place of the first set of plates that were not used.
FairMormon commentary
- The author is using mocking language and hyperbole to try to make his or her point —The critic intentionally exaggerates claims in order to mock believers.
Note the characterization of the "lame" explanation and "nonsensical" translation of the plates.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Our thoughts
We find it hard to believe that Satan and some evil men were really behind the plot to steal the 116 pages. The stolen pages would have eventually come forth, in probably a failed attempt to discredit Joseph. If nothing else they would have been worth a lot of money so we can't imagine why the evil men, if they existed, would not have used the pages to either try to discredit Joseph, ransom them to Martin and Joseph or hold on to them to eventually sell them. The stolen pages wouldn't have simply been destroyed by men who went to such trouble to obtain them.
FairMormon commentary
- The author is making mutually exclusive claims: —When critics need an attack against the Church, any excuse will do, even if they are mutually self-contradictory: if one argument is true, the other cannot be.
So men would not have simply destroyed the pages if they wanted to discredit Joseph, but Martin Harris' wife Lucy, who wished to discredit Joseph, is claimed to have done precisely that. - We think that the critics find it hard to believe that Satan and "evil men" actually exist at all.
- Why would the pages have been "worth a lot of money?" To whom? If Book of Mormon manuscript pages were worth a lot of money, then why didn't Joseph sell the original Book of Mormon manuscript instead of putting it in the cornerstone of the Nauvoo House? (where a lot of it rotted away before it was recovered). Wouldn't Joseph have wanted that money?
- If these pages still exist and were located now, we agree that they would be worth a lot of money.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Instead it seems much more plausible that Martin Harris' wife had immediately destroyed the pages to defy her husband. If that's the case we wonder if there could be any other reason why Joseph would make up the story about Satan's plan to discredit him? We have not yet been able to think of any other reasonable explanation to answer Joseph's actions other than he was not really translating an ancient document as he claimed.
FairMormon commentary
- Really? Why isn't it just as plausible that Martin Harris' wife showed the pages to some "evil men" as part of a plan to discredit Joseph Smith and get the money for their farm back?
- How would destroying the pages immediately help Mrs. Harris recoup her financial loss? There would be no evidence of the scam! So we should believe that she just got mad, burned the manuscript and then said "Oops! I just destroyed the evidence of the scam."
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
A further problem is that Joseph Smith appears to have falsified canonized scripture (D&C Section 10 and the introduction to the 1830 version of the BOM) by making up a story about evil men stealing the lost 116 pages in an attempt to discredit him when it seems obvious that there were no evil men and that Mrs. Harris likely destroyed the manuscript. If Joseph did make up this story, and have it canonized as scripture in the Doctrine & Covenants, as well as in the introduction to early versions of the Book of Mormon, then how can his other scriptures that he brought forth be trusted?
FairMormon commentary
- The author is begging the question: —Critics will often assume what they are trying to prove in how they frame questions or describe issues.
Note how the critics assume that Joseph "falsified canonized scripture" as fact and then proceed to draw a conclusion that no other scripture in the D&C or Book of Mormon can be trusted because of this. - MormonThink elsewhere claims that Joseph hallucinated the angel Moroni--they claim he was deceived. Now, they're claiming that he falsified scripture, which requires intent. Their explanation of Joseph shifts depending on their needs.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
There's an episode of the cartoon South Park called "All About the Mormons". In the episode, a faithful LDS family tells the story of the lost 116 pages to a neighbor boy they are trying to convert. They tell this story as proof that Joseph Smith was telling the truth and Mormonism is true. Perhaps the most telling comment we've ever heard about the lost 116 pages debacle comes from the neighborhood boy, who, after hearing the story of the lost 116 pages, exclaims ""Wait, Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a Prophet?"
FairMormon commentary
- The author is using mocking language and hyperbole to try to make his or her point —The critic intentionally exaggerates claims in order to mock believers.
Why yes, of course we should give credence to a satirical cartoon as providing valuable insight when determining what our most life-altering and sacred religious beliefs entail.