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Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/"Questions and Answers" on Mormon Stories/Translation of the Book of Mormon: Difference between revisions
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|claim=Joseph Smith used this....stone in the hat....to produce the Book of Mormon | |claim=Joseph Smith used this....stone in the hat....to produce the Book of Mormon | ||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
|answer= | |answer=In fact, both the seer stone and the Nephite interpreters were used, depending upon the phase of translation. One is no stranger than the other. | ||
|link=Book of Mormon/Translation/Method | |||
|subject=Chronology of translation methods | |||
|summary=We have a number of accounts of the translation process from the perspective of various contemporary second-hand witnesses who viewed the Prophet as he dictated to his scribes. The only person other than Joseph who attempted to directly translate was Oliver Cowdery. Oliver, however, did not record any details regarding the exact ''physical'' process that he employed during his attempt—we only have the ''spiritual'' aspect of the process. | |||
}} | }} | ||
{{:Book of Mormon/Translation/Urim and Thummim}} | {{:Book of Mormon/Translation/Urim and Thummim}} | ||
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|claim="this 'translation' process did not involve the golden plates" | |claim="this 'translation' process did not involve the golden plates" | ||
|authorsources= | |authorsources= | ||
|answer=Joseph and the Church have always said that the translation was conducted by "the gift and power of God." This means that ''of course'' Joseph would not use the plates in precisely the same way as an academic translator would use a source document. | |answer=Joseph and the Church have always said that the translation was conducted by "the gift and power of God." This means that ''of course'' Joseph would not use the plates in precisely the same way as an academic translator would use a source document. He did use the plates initially as he struggled to learn to translate. | ||
|quote=According to Joseph Fielding Smith, Joseph Smith did not immediately translate the Book of Mormon but was initially involved in a period of study and investigation. President Smith wrote that although "nothing was done towards translating the record that year [1827]," Joseph "was busy ''studying the characters'' and making himself ''familiar'' with them and the use of the Urim and Thummim. He had a great deal more to do than merely to sit down and with the use of the instrument prepared for that purpose translate the characters on the plates." President Smith concluded: "Nothing worth while comes to us merely for the asking. All knowledge and skill are obtained by consistent and determined study and practice, and so the Prophet found it to be the case in the translating of the ''Book of Mormon''."<ref>{{JBMS-5-2-3}} Citations from {{Book:Smith:Doctrines of Salvation|3|215–16, {{eo}}}}</ref> | |||
|link=Book of Mormon/Translation | |||
|subject=Translation of the Book of Mormon | |||
|summary=What do we know about the method used to translate the Book of Mormon? Were the plates sometimes not in the room while Joseph was translating them? It is claimed that each sentence and word in the 1830 Book of Mormon "had supposedly come directly from God." | |||
}} | }} | ||
=="which begs the question as to why the plates were needed at all?"== | =="which begs the question as to why the plates were needed at all?"== | ||
{{DehlinIndexItem | {{DehlinIndexItem | ||
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The plates also probably helped reassure Joseph and those close to him that he was not crazy, or delusional, or lying—he had genuine, tangible artifacts. | The plates also probably helped reassure Joseph and those close to him that he was not crazy, or delusional, or lying—he had genuine, tangible artifacts. | ||
}} | }} | ||
{{:Book_of_Mormon/Translation/Location_of_the_plates}} | |||
Revision as of 23:20, 26 June 2014
| Treasure digging | A FAIR Analysis of: John Dehlin's "Questions and Answers" A work by author: John Dehlin
|
Historicity of the Book of Mormon |
- "Joseph Smith used this....stone in the hat....to produce the Book of Mormon"
- "this same stone in the hat....from his folk magic days"
- "this 'translation' process did not involve the golden plates"
- "which begs the question as to why the plates were needed at all?"
"Joseph Smith used this....stone in the hat....to produce the Book of Mormon"
The author's unresolved question
"Joseph Smith used this....stone in the hat....to produce the Book of Mormon"
"Joseph Smith used this....stone in the hat....to produce the Book of Mormon"
Response to the author's claim
In fact, both the seer stone and the Nephite interpreters were used, depending upon the phase of translation. One is no stranger than the other.
Links to related information:
- Chronology of translation methods—We have a number of accounts of the translation process from the perspective of various contemporary second-hand witnesses who viewed the Prophet as he dictated to his scribes. The only person other than Joseph who attempted to directly translate was Oliver Cowdery. Oliver, however, did not record any details regarding the exact physical process that he employed during his attempt—we only have the spiritual aspect of the process. (Click here for full article)
The "Urim and Thummim" used by Joseph Smith to translate the "gold plates"
Jump to details:
- Question: Did Joseph Smith use the Nephite interpreters to translate? Or did he use his own seer stone?
- Question: What are the Nephite interpreters?
- Question: Did Joseph Smith use his own seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon?
- Question: Has the Church tried to hide Joseph's use of a seer stone?
- Gospel Topics: "Joseph placed either the interpreters or the seer stone in a hat"
- Question: Did Joseph ever place the Nephite interpreters ("Urim and Thummim") into his hat?
- Gospel Topics: "Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term 'Urim and Thummim' to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters"
- Ensign (Jan. 2013): "He...referred to it using an Old Testament term, Urim and Thummim...He also sometimes applied the term to other stones he possessed"
- W.W. Phelps (1833): "through the aid of a pair of Interpreters, or spectacles—(known, perhaps, in ancient days as Teraphim, or Urim and Thummim)"
- Question: Which method of translation was more "believable": seer stone or Nephite interpreters?
- Question: What does the Church teach investigators and members regarding the method by which the Book of Mormon was produced?
"this same stone in the hat....from his folk magic days"
The author's unresolved question
""this same stone in the hat....from his folk magic days""
""this same stone in the hat....from his folk magic days""
Response to the author's claim
How was Joseph to learn to be a prophet from scratch? God allowed Joseph to develop confidence via a method in which he and others already believed he had skill.
Joseph Smith used the same "rock in hat" seer stone for translating that he used for "money digging"
Jump to details:
- Gospel Topics: "As Joseph grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use this stone for the higher purpose of translating scripture"
- Question: Why would Joseph Smith use the same stone for translating the Book of Mormon that he used for "money digging"?
- Question: What role did Joseph fill in the community as a youth?
- Question: Didn't Joseph's 1826 Bainbridge appearance before a judge prove that he had previously been using his stone for nefarious purposes?
- Question: Why would Joseph Smith not continue to use the sacred interpreters provided with the Nephite record?
- Question: Did Joseph use his seer stone to view the location of the gold plates in the Hill Cumorah?
- Question: Did Joseph Smith use his own seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon?
- Question: Did Joseph Smith use the Nephite interpreters to translate? Or did he use his own seer stone?
- Question: Did Joseph Fielding Smith say that it was not reasonable for Joseph Smith to use a seer stone to translate the Book of Mormon?
- Question: Why is the "white stone" that we are to receive upon entry to the Celestial kingdom not discussed extensively in Sunday School?
- Brant A. Gardner, "Joseph the Seer—or Why Did He Translate With a Rock in His Hat?"
"this 'translation' process did not involve the golden plates"
The author's unresolved question
""this 'translation' process did not involve the golden plates""
""this 'translation' process did not involve the golden plates""
Response to the author's claim
Joseph and the Church have always said that the translation was conducted by "the gift and power of God." This means that of course Joseph would not use the plates in precisely the same way as an academic translator would use a source document. He did use the plates initially as he struggled to learn to translate.
Quotes to consider
According to Joseph Fielding Smith, Joseph Smith did not immediately translate the Book of Mormon but was initially involved in a period of study and investigation. President Smith wrote that although "nothing was done towards translating the record that year [1827]," Joseph "was busy studying the characters and making himself familiar with them and the use of the Urim and Thummim. He had a great deal more to do than merely to sit down and with the use of the instrument prepared for that purpose translate the characters on the plates." President Smith concluded: "Nothing worth while comes to us merely for the asking. All knowledge and skill are obtained by consistent and determined study and practice, and so the Prophet found it to be the case in the translating of the Book of Mormon."[1]
Links to related information:
- Translation of the Book of Mormon—What do we know about the method used to translate the Book of Mormon? Were the plates sometimes not in the room while Joseph was translating them? It is claimed that each sentence and word in the 1830 Book of Mormon "had supposedly come directly from God." (Click here for full article)
"which begs the question as to why the plates were needed at all?"
The author's unresolved question
""which begs the question as to why the plates were needed at all?""
""which begs the question as to why the plates were needed at all?""
Response to the author's claim
The question has a simple answer, even if the author refuses to acknowledge it. If there were no plates, it would be easy—as many cultural Mormons and critics have tried to do anyway—to claim that the Book of Mormon was an "inspired fiction." The existence of real, literal plates seen and handled by witnesses is evidence that the Nephites really existed. The Book of Mormon story is not a mere allegory or fiction—it is real history, about real people, who meet a real, genuine, living Christ.
The plates also probably helped reassure Joseph and those close to him that he was not crazy, or delusional, or lying—he had genuine, tangible artifacts.
Location of the plates during translation
Jump to details:
- Question: Why were the gold plates needed at all if they weren't used directly during the translation process?
- Question: How do Church members assume that Joseph would have "used the plates" during translation?
- Question: How did Joseph Smith actually use the gold plates?
- Source:Peterson:FR 17:2:They are an indigestible lump in the throats of people like him who contend that there were no Nephites
- ↑ David E. Sloan, "The Anthon Transcripts and the Translation of the Book of Mormon: Studying It Out in the Mind of Joseph Smith," Journal of Book of Mormon Studies 5/2 (1996). [57–81] link Citations from Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols., (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56).