Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Online documents/Denver Snuffer"

m (→‎"I was and am able to a pass temple recommend interview. I can answer all the questions in the right way")
m (→‎"I was and am able to a pass temple recommend interview. I can answer all the questions in the right way")
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|note=Denver Snuffer, "Ten Points," from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 14 September 2013, {{antilink|http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/09/ten-points.html}}
 
|note=Denver Snuffer, "Ten Points," from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 14 September 2013, {{antilink|http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/09/ten-points.html}}
 
}}
 
}}
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This issue would not be raised if Snuffer had not made it an issue. He told the First Presidency:
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This question would not be raised if Snuffer had not repeatedly made it an issue. He told the First Presidency:
  
 
:I was and am worthy of a Temple Recommend.<ref>Snuffer to First Presidency, Letter (13 September 2013), 2 reproduced in {{CriticalWork:Snuffer:Mesa|pages=42}}</ref>
 
:I was and am worthy of a Temple Recommend.<ref>Snuffer to First Presidency, Letter (13 September 2013), 2 reproduced in {{CriticalWork:Snuffer:Mesa|pages=42}}</ref>
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One temple recommend question asks if the member sustains the President of the Church, First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and his local leaders. Snuffer has made it clear he does not sustain any of these leaders because:
 
One temple recommend question asks if the member sustains the President of the Church, First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and his local leaders. Snuffer has made it clear he does not sustain any of these leaders because:
  
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* he has repeatedly criticized them (see above);
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* he has repeatedly criticized them (see here{{NC}});
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* he claims that the prophet and the apostles do not have the priesthood keys that they claim to have;<ref>For an extensive evaluation of these claims, see [[Criticism_of_Mormonism/Books/Passing_the_Heavenly_Gift/Source_of_authority_of_Brigham_Young_and_the_apostles_after_Joseph%27s_death|here]].</ref>
+
* he claims that the prophet and the apostles do not have the priesthood keys that they claim to have (see [[Criticism_of_Mormonism/Books/Passing_the_Heavenly_Gift/Source_of_authority_of_Brigham_Young_and_the_apostles_after_Joseph%27s_death|here]]);
 
* he has refused to refrain from publishing what his stake president referred to as "mischaracterized doctrine" in a book whose "thesis is in direct conflict with church doctrine"<ref>M. Truman Hunt to Denver Snuffer, “Notice of Disciplinary Council,” letter (21 August 2013), 1–2. Online at Denver Snuffer, “Don’t call me. (Yes, that means you too!),” from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 23 August 2013, {{antilink|http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/08/dont-call-me-yes-that-means-you-too_23.html}}</ref> He has done so even when he knows that a member of the Quorum of the Twelve has reviewed the book.<ref>Snuffer claims that "the Seventy and Elder Christofferson of the Twelve were going to review the book and President Hunt was to “stand down” until he heard further....President Hunt called me in again after he had received further direction from the hierarchy and  
 
* he has refused to refrain from publishing what his stake president referred to as "mischaracterized doctrine" in a book whose "thesis is in direct conflict with church doctrine"<ref>M. Truman Hunt to Denver Snuffer, “Notice of Disciplinary Council,” letter (21 August 2013), 1–2. Online at Denver Snuffer, “Don’t call me. (Yes, that means you too!),” from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 23 August 2013, {{antilink|http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/08/dont-call-me-yes-that-means-you-too_23.html}}</ref> He has done so even when he knows that a member of the Quorum of the Twelve has reviewed the book.<ref>Snuffer claims that "the Seventy and Elder Christofferson of the Twelve were going to review the book and President Hunt was to “stand down” until he heard further....President Hunt called me in again after he had received further direction from the hierarchy and  
 
told me there was church ordered compulsion to withdraw the book from publication or face discipline." [Snuffer to First Presidency, Letter (13 September 2013), 1&ndash;2; reproduced in {{CriticalWork:Snuffer:Mesa|pages=41-42}}] Thus, Snuffer knows that an apostle and others do not wish him to continue to make the claims that he is making, but he does not stop doing so.</ref>
 
told me there was church ordered compulsion to withdraw the book from publication or face discipline." [Snuffer to First Presidency, Letter (13 September 2013), 1&ndash;2; reproduced in {{CriticalWork:Snuffer:Mesa|pages=41-42}}] Thus, Snuffer knows that an apostle and others do not wish him to continue to make the claims that he is making, but he does not stop doing so.</ref>
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* he has refused to comply with disciplinary council procedures, despite his stake president's request. He had so little respect for the procedures that he refused to attend when his demands were not met (see above).
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* he has refused to comply with disciplinary council procedures, despite his stake president's request. He had so little respect for the procedures that he refused to attend when his demands were not met (see here{{NC}}).
  
 
Snuffer's claim is false&mdash;by his own description of his behavior, he was not "worthy of a temple recommend." He either does not understand the temple recommend questions, or he is being dishonest with his readers, the First Presidency, and perhaps himself.
 
Snuffer's claim is false&mdash;by his own description of his behavior, he was not "worthy of a temple recommend." He either does not understand the temple recommend questions, or he is being dishonest with his readers, the First Presidency, and perhaps himself.

Revision as of 11:10, 19 September 2014

  1. REDIRECTTemplate:Test3

Contents

A FairMormon Analysis of Denver Snuffer's Online Claims

This page is still under construction. We welcome any suggestions for improving the content of this FAIR Answers Wiki page.

Overview

Denver Snuffer was excommunicated for apostasy on 11 September 2013 because of the claims made in his book Passing the Heavenly Gift.[1] Following his excommunication, Snuffer has declared, among other things, that the Church's First Presidency has lost their authority, and claimed that Jesus appeared to him to instruct him. This wiki page examines his historical and other claims.

Snuffer has announced that:

The Lord has said to me in His own voice, "I will bless those who bless you, and curse those who curse you." Therefore, I want to caution those who disagree with me, to feel free, to feel absolutely free to make the case against what I say. Feel free to disagree, and make your contrary arguments. If you believe I err, then expose the error and denounce it. But take care; take care about what you say concerning me for your sake, not for mine. I live with constant criticism. I can take it. But I do not want you provoking Divine ire by unfortunately chosen words if I can persuade you against it.[2]

At his invitation, then, FairMormon undertakes to evaluate his public claims, statements, and teachings. We do not curse him, but simply offer the "contrary arguments" that he says that he welcomes:

I like criticism more than praise. Criticism, particularly well thought through criticism, is appreciated. Never shout down critics.[3]

FairMormon's response

In developing our response, our primary intended audience is not necessarily Snuffer nor his associates, but rather those individuals, perhaps faithful Latter-day Saints, perhaps questioning, perhaps once-faithful but now sincerely doubting, who may have come across his teachings and been troubled by their superficial plausibility.

This set of articles comprises approximately ??? questions or sources assigned to the response to Denver Snuffer. A full list of these articles may be found here: Category:Denver Snuffer. New questions and sources are periodically added to this list.

Quick Navigation

"At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"

Denver Snuffer claim:

Last general conference [April 2014], the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.

Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014), 7. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration

FairMormon Response


Question: Have Latter-day Saint (Mormon) Church leaders lost priesthood authority?

Such claims are typically made by apostates because they were excommunicated

The course of events makes it clear that the Stake, the Seventy and the Twelve have all been involved and bear some responsibility for [my excommunication]. I need to afford the First Presidency the opportunity to bear responsibility as well.

— Denver Snuffer, Jr. to the First Presidency[4]
∗       ∗       ∗
Last general conference [April 2014], the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.

— Denver Snuffer, Jr. to his followers[5]
∗       ∗       ∗
I will give you one of the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom. It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all Eternity that that man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is in the high road to apostacy and if he does not repent will apostatize as God lives[.]
— Joseph Smith, Jr.[6]
∗       ∗       ∗

Some who are excommunicated from the Church believe that the leaders of the Church have lost any right to claim priesthood leadership. For example, Denver Snuffer, after his excommunication, claimed that everyone is "out of the way"—the Prophet, the apostles, the entire Church leadership, have all lost any right to claim priesthood leadership. Why? Because Snuffer was excommunicated.

Denver Snuffer stated:

Last general conference [April 2014], the entire First Presidency, the 12, the 70, and all other general authorities and auxiliaries, voted to sustain those who abused their authority in casting me out of the church. At that moment, the Lord ended all claims of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, to claim it is led by the priesthood.[7]

By contrast, Joseph Smith says that people who make claims such as Snuffer does are possessed with the spirit of apostasy, and not the spirit of God:

I will give you one of the keys of the mysteries of the kingdom. It is an eternal principle that has existed with God from all Eternity that that man who rises up to condemn others, finding fault with the Church, saying that they are out of the way while he himself is righteous, then know assuredly that that man is in the high road to apostacy and if he does not repent will apostatize as God lives[.][8]

Snuffer claims to sustain Joseph Smith, and to be continuing his work.

But, if Joseph is a prophet, Snuffer is an apostate from the truth.

If Joseph is not a prophet, then Snuffer's religious claims are likewise false.

In either case, Snuffer is wrong.

"I quoted from past church leaders’ diaries, journals, talks, letters or writings. But I did not criticize."

Denver Snuffer claim:

Snuffer told his stake president and the First Presidency: "I was shown a section of the Church Handbook of Instructions that mandated discipline for criticizing the church’s leaders. I explained I hadn’t done that. I quoted from past church leaders’ diaries, journals, talks, letters or writings. But I did not criticize.[9]

FairMormon Response


Question: What happens when a Mormon criticizes Church leaders?

If done publicly and repeatedly, it can lead to excommunication

I am repulsed by people claiming they are to be respected as some giant, freaking, priesthood key holding, omni-competent replacement for God! I am tired of that! I don't want any more of that! I've had enough!

— Denver Snuffer [10]:31
∗       ∗       ∗
To the extent I have ever spoken about living church leaders I have praised them.

— Denver Snuffer[11]:42
∗       ∗       ∗
Murder was allowed [in Utah] but only when President Young thought it was needed for the salvation of the victim.

— Denver Snuffer[12]:223
∗       ∗       ∗
It is not the responsibility of church members to judge church authorities.

— Denver Snuffer[12]:28–29, 422

One critic of the Church, Denver Snuffer, told his stake president and the First Presidency::

I was shown a section of the Church Handbook of Instructions that mandated discipline for criticizing the church’s leaders. I explained I hadn’t done that. I quoted from past church leaders’ diaries, journals, talks, letters or writings. But I did not criticize.[11]:42

Snuffer's account is not accurate. He has repeatedly criticized and attacked Church leaders.

Snuffer claims that his stake president agree with this after he 'explained' it to him:

I denied this accusation and after giving the explanation President Hunt agreed.[11]

However, his stake president seems to see the matter very differently, as revealed in a letter he wrote to Snuffer which Snuffer made public:

You [Denver Snuffer] have mischaracterized doctrine, denigrated virtually every prophet since Joseph Smith, and placed the church in a negative light....[13]

Snuffer reports that:

I asserted [to the stake president] that if he believed I was really "apostate" he would never have stood down. For that reason it was him merely following commands from higher up, and not a local matter.[14]

Yet, the Stake President clearly did not agree with this view:

[A]s you know, a stake disciplinary council was held on your behalf on September 8, 2013. The council's conclusion was that several of the claims that you make in Passing the Heavenly Gift constitute clear, open, and deliberate public opposition to the Church and its leaders. Consequently, the council determined that you should be excommunicated from the Church for apostasy.[15]

It seems more likely, then, that Snuffer's stake president concluded that further attempts to reason with Snuffer on this issue was pointless. Anyone who can make so many criticisms and complaints, and then insist with a straight face that they've never criticized Church leaders is either dishonest, or not open to reasoned discussion.

False and self-contradictory claims

This claim is blatantly false. Snuffer's book and other pre-excommunication writing[16] is filled with criticism of the Church's leaders.

Snuffer's book is also self-contradictory. He declares that "It is not the responsibility of church members to judge church authorities."[12]:28–29, 422

But, he judges them repeatedly. By his own standards, his behavior is inappropriate.

He is not speaking the truth when he says that he does not criticize, and he judges despite claiming he should not.

Response to claim: Latter-day Saint leaders = Popes

Snuffer compares modern leaders to the Popes, making false claims:

"The proud descendants of Nauvoo who have always retained control of the church’s top leadership positions, claim to hold all the keys ever given to Joseph Smith. They teach that they can bind on earth and in heaven. They are the ‘new Popes’ having the authority the Catholic Pope claims to possess."[12]:303, see also 66, 263

If this is not a criticism, what is it?

Response to claim: Latter-day Saint leaders foster "cult of personality"

Snuffer repeatedly claims that leaders of the Church foster a "cult of personality."[12]:241, 264, 352, 359–360

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

Response to claim: Latter-day Saint leaders believe they should be "adored"

Snuffer claims that prophets believe

they are entitled to the adoration of followers.[12]:359–360

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

Response to claim: Latter-day Saint leaders guilty of spiritual "murder" and "priestcrafts"

Snuffer claims:

We [the Latter-day Saints] claim to hold keys that would allow men filled with sin to forgive sins on earth and in heaven, to grant eternal life, or to bar from the kingdom of God. Using that false and useless claim, we slay the souls of men, thereby committing murder. We are riddled with priestcrafts.[12]:414

Snuffer ignores that the claim to hold keys derives not from "Latter-day Saints," but from both the Bible and Doctrine and Covenants:

Bible: And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19).

Doctrine and Covenants: That whoever he blesses shall be blessed, and whoever he curses shall be cursed; that whatsoever he shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever he shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven (D&C 124:93).

Doctrine and Covenants:hatsoever you seal on earth shall be sealed in heaven; and whatsoever you bind on earth, in my name and by my word, saith the Lord, it shall be eternally bound in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you remit on earth shall be remitted eternally in the heavens; and whosesoever sins you retain on earth shall be retained in heaven (D&C 132꞉46, emphasis added).

Does Snuffer imagine that these men were any less fallible, any less sinful that modern leaders? Yet, God declared that they had priesthood keys of blessing and cursing, binding and loosing, of remitting or retaining sins.

Joseph Smith could have been speaking directly to Snuffer's complaint when he wrote:

It may seem to some to be a very bold doctrine that we talk of—a power which records or binds on earth and binds in heaven. Nevertheless, in all ages of the world, whenever the Lord has given a dispensation of the priesthood to any man by actual revelation, or any set of men, this power has always been given. Hence, whatsoever those men did in authority, in the name of the Lord, and did it truly and faithfully, and kept a proper and faithful record of the same, it became a law on earth and in heaven, and could not be annulled, according to the decrees of the great Jehovah. This is a faithful saying. Who can hear it? (D&C 128꞉9). [Joseph then quotes Matthew 16 as above.]

Snuffer's quarrel, then, is not with the Church leaders, but with ancient and modern scripture, as well as Joseph Smith whom he claims to sustain.

These claims are criticisms. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

Response to claim: David O. McKay liked to be 'lionized'

Snuffer makes a false claim relying on a misrepresented text to claim that David O. McKay "liked his ‘celebrity status’ and wanted ‘to be recognized, lauded, and lionized'."[12]:349

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

  1. REDIRECT Question: Did David O. McKay like to be "recognized, lauded, and lionized"?

Response to claim: Latter-day Saint leaders = Proud

He repeatedly labels all general leaders since Nauvoo as "proud":

  • “Ever since the expulsion of church members from Nauvoo, the highest leadership positions in the church have been held by Nauvoo’s proud descendants.”[12]:113
  • “The proud refugees from Nauvoo and their descendants have always claimed they succeeded in doing all that was required.”[12]:381
  • “If [my] new view of history is more correct than the narrative offered by the proud descendants of Nauvoo…”[12]:420
  • “The Nauvoo saints and their proud descendants would necessarily diminish. This view is unlikely to ever be accepted by a church whose leadership is filled overwhelmingly by those same proud descendants of Nauvoo. There hasn’t been a single church president without Nauvoo ancestors.”[12]:119

It is clear that he intends the term "proud" in its negative sense, since he elsewhere accuses the leaders of great arrogance:

I am repulsed by people claiming they are to be respected as some giant, freaking, priesthood key holding, omni-competent replacement for God! I am tired of that! I don't want any more of that! I've had enough![10]:31

This is a gross misrepresentation of how LDS members see their leaders, or what the leaders claim. But, it is the attitude that Snuffer imputes to them—clearly stuffed with pride and arrogance.

To be "proud" is to be guilty of great sin.

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

Response to claim: Latter-day Saint leaders only "administrative apostles"

Snuffer's attitude toward modern Church leaders is displayed in his chapter title, "Prophets, Profits and Priestcraft."[12]:185 The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles are said to be "modern administrative Apostles,"[12]:61 who cannot bear the proper Apostolic witness that Snuffer can: there are “two different kinds of Apostles”—”one is an administrative office in the church. The other is a witness of the resurrection, who has met with Christ”.[12]:34

To accuse others of priestcraft and valuing "profits" over prophecy is not a compliment. It is not praise to say that the Twelve Apostles are only "administrators" instead of witnesses of the resurrection.

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

Response to claim: Latter-day Saint leaders use "Babylonian methods"

Snuffer accuses Church leaders of changing the Church, and using "[B]abylonian methods":

"The book brings to light the [B]abylonian methods church leadership uses to make rapid and dramatic changes. We are not now the same church restored by Joseph Smith....."[17]

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

Response to claim: Latter-day Saint leaders = not true messengers

Snuffer writes:

Part of the ceremony [made] it...clear to those who participated that there were no mortal sources who could claim they were ‘true messengers.’ Mortal men were universally depicted as false ministers in the ceremony Joseph restored. The only source of true messengers was God or angels sent by Him.[12]:276

LDS prophets and apostles claim to be true messengers from God. Snuffer says that they are not.

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

Response to claim: "Instructions from above" are not from Salt Lake City

Snuffer tells his followers:

instruction from above...for me...has little to do with 47 East South Temple.[18]

Snuffer claims that instructions from Church leaders (at the Church Office Building at 47 East South Temple) are not from above, while claiming that he does get instruction from God above.

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

Response to claim: Latter-day Saint leaders wish to hide the Church's desire to accommodate the homosexual agenda

Snuffer tells his audience that the Church is easing "toward open acceptance of socially progressive mormonism. This is the product of social, political and legal pressure," as evidenced by the Church's support of anti-discrimination ordinances for homosexuals.[17]

  • "This accounts for the difference between the reaction of the church to socially progressive Mormons (who are tolerated) and me. Those who advocate for the place the church has already decided to go are not a threat to their plans. What I write can create a good deal of difficultly in arriving there."[17]
  • "The church needs not only to "teach for doctrine the commandments of men," the church must be able to teach AS doctrine the commandments of men. Meaning that the church must have those aboard who will do, believe and accept whatever the leaders tell the members. Unquestionably. Unhesitatingly."[17]
  • "I will state for all you blog readers: Passing the Heavenly Gift contains content that will make your appreciation and acceptance of the efforts of the institution now and in the future to bend its teachings to conform to social, political and legal trends much more difficult to achieve. You will be happier if you don't read the book. You will be more inclined to sleepwalk along with what is progressively distant from the original restoration. You will not detect that these changes mark the downfall predicted in the prophecies of the Book of Mormon and Doctrine & Covenants."[17]

Snuffer claims Church leaders are caving to social and legal pressure on homosexuality, and not following God's will.

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

Response to claim: Latter-day Saint leaders wink at homosexual lust

  • The church introduced a web page on same sex attraction. Two of the twelve contributed to the page. One of them asserted that same sex attraction is not a sin, but only acting on the impulse would be. This is an interesting accommodation which contradicts the Lord's statement that "whosoever looketh upon a woman to lust after her hath already committed adultery in his heart." Or, adds to it: "but if you burn in lust for the same sex that isn't adultery in your heart."[17]

Snuffer here accuses two of the twelve apostles:

  1. of teaching contrary to Jesus' words
  2. of declaring that "burning in lust" isn't a sin.

Snuffer is clearly misrepresenting the apostles. Snuffer's "opposite sex attraction" is not a sin in and of itself, and someone else's "same sex attraction" is not a sin. Snuffer could sin by burning in lust toward someone, just as a homosexual member could sin by encouraging fantasies of same sex acts. But, there mere fact that Snuffer, or the homosexual member, have an attraction to one gender or the other is not a sin.

It appears that Snuffer is going out of his way to find fault, and reading Church leaders with the least charitable interpretation possible.

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

To learn more: Even further examples of Snuffer's criticism of his leaders are discussed elsewhere.

Response to claim: LDS leaders cannot bear proper testimony of the resurrection

Question: Do LDS leaders bear proper testimony of the resurrection?

Snuffer claims:

Today, testimonies of the presiding authorities, including the First Presidency and Quorum of Twelve, assert only vaguely they are “special witnesses” of the Lord…. A great number of active Latter-day Saints do not notice the careful parsing [sic] of words used by modern administrative Apostles. They presume a “witness of the name” of Christ is the same as the New Testament witness of His resurrection. The apostolic witness was always intended to be based upon the dramatic, the extraordinary…. Without such visionary encounters with the Lord, they are unable to witness about Him, but only of His name.[12]:62

It is not a compliment to claim that the Twelve Apostles "are unable to witness about" Christ.

This is a criticism. Snuffer's claim to not criticize is false.

Snuffer also misrepresents the content of many modern apostles' witness:

Response to Passing the Heavenly Gift: Claims about Brigham Young and apostles not being witnesses of Christ


Jump to details:



"We must all find salvation for ourselves"

Denver Snuffer claim:

"Even if you give the most optimistic assessment of the restoration and current condition of the church it can do nothing for the individual Latter-day Saint. We must all find salvation for ourselves.[19]

FairMormon Response


Plan of salvation/Do we need a church


The Doctrine and Covenants teaches that some things are required from the Church for full salvation to its members. The Lord says of those who have acted wickedly:

But those who cry transgression do it because they are the servants of sin, and are the children of disobedience themselves....Wo unto them; because they have offended my little ones they shall be severed from the ordinances of mine house....They shall not have right to the priesthood, nor their posterity after them from generation to generation. It had been better for them that a millstone had been hanged about their necks, and they drowned in the depth of the sea (DC 121꞉17,19,21-22).

These scriptures teach that it is a great tragedy and punishment if:

  • one does not receive the priesthood
  • one is severed from the ordinances

Joseph Smith always administered these things through the Church's organizational structure: these ordinances require legitimate authority, and are important for exaltation, contrary to Snuffer's claims.

Just before his death, Joseph emphasized:

I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness—a man can do nothing for himself unless God direct him in the right way, and the Priesthood is reserved for that purpose.[20]

Snuffer's efforts to dismiss the importance of the Church and its ordinances via priesthood authority lead him to preach false doctrine.

"it does not matter whether there is an officiator with authority from God on the earth or not"

Denver Snuffer claim:

"[I]t would be good to have an authorized minister to perform the ordinance [of baptism, but] it does not matter whether there is an officiator with authority from God on the earth or not...."[21]

FairMormon Response


Mormonism and priesthood/Restoration/Why do we need authority


[There is] no salvation between the two lids of the bible without a legal administrator.
—Joseph Smith[22]

The scriptures and Joseph Smith repeatedly teach that an authorized priesthood holder is necessary for ordinances, including baptism:

  • Jesus in 3 Nephi 11꞉21-22: "I give unto you power that ye shall baptize this people when I am again ascended into heaven.And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize."
  • Articles of Faith: "We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof" (A+of+F 1꞉5).
  • Book of Mormon: "...king Limhi and many of his people were desirous to be baptized; but there was none in the land that had authority from God....Therefore they did not at that time form themselves into a church, waiting upon the Spirit of the Lord....They were desirous to be baptized as a witness and a testimony that they were willing to serve God with all their hearts; nevertheless they did prolong the time; and an account of their baptism shall be given hereafter" (Mosiah 21꞉33-35).

Denver Snuffer claim:

"[I]t would be good to have an authorized minister to perform the ordinance [of baptism, but] it does not matter whether there is an officiator with authority from God on the earth or not...."[23]

FairMormon Response


Snuffer claims anyone can baptize without authority, but the Doctrine and Covenants teaches that not even all priesthood offices can baptize:

But neither teachers nor deacons have authority to baptize, administer the sacrament, or lay on hands.... (D&C 20꞉58).

The scripture tells us precisely who may baptize:

an Apostle is an Elder & it is his calling to Baptize & to ordain other Elders, Priests, Teachers & Deacons…The Priests duty is to…baptize…& ordain other Priests, Teaches & Deacons....[24]

Snuffer claims God has called him to preach his doctrines

Denver Snuffer claim:

Snuffer claims God has called him to preach his doctrines. [needs work][25]

FairMormon Response


The scriptures tell us that one may not preach the gospel or build up the Church without known authority:

Again I say unto you, that it shall not be given to any one to go forth to preach my gospel, or to build up my church, except he be ordained by some one who has authority, and it is known to the church that he has authority and has been regularly ordained by the heads of the church (DC 42꞉11).

Not only does Snuffer have no authority from the heads of the Church, he certainly not been "regularly ordained." Instead, he has been excommunicated for apostasy.

His teachings and claims violate the scriptures he claims to uphold.

"the responsibility to live so as to invite the Spirit is all you need"

Denver Snuffer claim:

" If the Holy Ghost will visit you even without an authoritative ordinance then the responsibility to live so as to invite the Spirit is all you need to have that same companionship the ordinance could confer...."[26]

FairMormon Response


Snuffer claims that receiving the ordinance of confirmation and the gift of the Holy Ghost makes no difference. But, Joseph Smith taught the opposite:

There is a difference between the Holy Ghost and the gift of the Holy Ghost. Cornelius received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized, which was the convincing [Page 194]power of God unto him of the truth of the Gospel, but he could not receive the gift of the Holy Ghost until after he was baptized. Had he not taken this sign or ordinance upon him, the Holy Ghost which convinced him of the truth of God, would have left him.[27]

Snuffer is teaching false doctrine about the Restoration.

"the required priestly authority is still available through the veil"

Denver Snuffer claim:

Ordinances do not need to be performed by one with legitimate Church authority, since "the required priestly authority is still available through the veil."[28]

FairMormon Response


Snuffer again contradicts Joseph Smith, who made it very clear that no ordinances would be performed by divine messengers once the authority had been conferred on mortals:

The angel told… Cornelius that he must send for Peter to learn how to be saved: Peter could baptize, and angels could not, so long as there were legal officers in the flesh holding the keys of the kingdom, or the authority of the priesthood. There is one evidence still further on this point, and that is that Jesus himself when he appeared to Paul on his way to Damascus, did not inform him how he could be saved. He had set in the church firstly Apostles, and secondly prophets for the work of the ministry… and as the grand rule of heaven was that nothing should ever be done on earth without revealing the secret to his servants the prophets…. [S]o Paul could not learn so much from the [Page 196]Lord relative to his duty in the common salvation of man, as he could from one of Christ’s ambassadors called with the same heavenly calling of the Lord, and endowed with the same power from on high—so that what they loosed on earth, should be loosed in heaven; and what they bound on earth should be bound in heaven.[29]

Denver Snuffer claim:

Snuffer claims the Church has lost the fullness, but "[t]he required priestly authority is still available through the veil."[30]

FairMormon Response


Snuffer claims that the Church has lost vital priesthood authority, and so ordinances do not need it, or Snuffer's followers can get it "through the veil."

An angel, said Joseph, may administer the word of the Lord unto men, and bring intelligence to them from heaven upon various subjects; but no true angel from God will ever come to ordain any man, because they have once been sent to establish the priesthood by ordaining me thereunto; and the priesthood being once established on earth, with power to ordain others, no heavenly messenger will ever come to interfere with that power by ordaining any more…You may therefore know, from this time forward, that if any man comes to you professing to be ordained by an angel, he is either a liar or has been imposed upon in consequence of transgression by an angel of the devil, for this priesthood shall never be taken away from this church.[31]
To learn more: Read more about the false claims that led Joseph to teach this doctrine

Joseph Smith said that the Church would never lack priesthood authority, and that if someone claimed a heavenly messenger had brought them authority, they were either:

  1. deceived by Satan; or
  2. a liar.

"You do not need buildings to meet. Tithing is for the poor"

Denver Snuffer claim:

"You do not need buildings to meet. Tithing is for the poor."[32]

FairMormon Response


  1. REDIRECT Question: Why does the church spend so much money on temples when children are dying of starvation?

Passing the Heavenly Gift is "the most correct account of our dispensation written so far"

Denver Snuffer claim:

"[My book Passing the Heavenly Gift is] the most correct account of our dispensation written so far...."[33]

FairMormon Response


Despite this grandiose claim, Snuffer's book is filled with historical errors, omissions, and misrepresentations.


Response to claims made in Passing the Heavenly Gift by Denver C. Snuffer

Summary: This account of Church history contains numerous inaccuracies, distortions, and misrepresentations of the data.


Jump to details:


"Joseph Smith only built one building-a temple"

Denver Snuffer claim:

"Joseph Smith only built one building—a temple."[34]

FairMormon Response


  1. REDIRECT Question: Should there be only one temple?

"I was and am able to a pass temple recommend interview. I can answer all the questions in the right way"

Denver Snuffer claim:

"I was and am able to a pass temple recommend interview. I can answer all the questions in the right way."

Denver Snuffer, "Ten Points," from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 14 September 2013, http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/09/ten-points.html

FairMormon Response


This question would not be raised if Snuffer had not repeatedly made it an issue. He told the First Presidency:

I was and am worthy of a Temple Recommend.[35]

He even enlists the stake president in this claim:

The stake president admitted to me and my wife before the Council began, that I was then worthy of a temple recommend (italics added).[36]

One temple recommend question asks if the member sustains the President of the Church, First Presidency, Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and his local leaders. Snuffer has made it clear he does not sustain any of these leaders because:

  • he has repeatedly criticized them (see here[citation needed]);
  • he claims that the prophet and the apostles do not have the priesthood keys that they claim to have (see here);
  • he has refused to refrain from publishing what his stake president referred to as "mischaracterized doctrine" in a book whose "thesis is in direct conflict with church doctrine"[37] He has done so even when he knows that a member of the Quorum of the Twelve has reviewed the book.[38]
  • he has refused to comply with disciplinary council procedures, despite his stake president's request. He had so little respect for the procedures that he refused to attend when his demands were not met (see here[citation needed]).

Snuffer's claim is false—by his own description of his behavior, he was not "worthy of a temple recommend." He either does not understand the temple recommend questions, or he is being dishonest with his readers, the First Presidency, and perhaps himself.

He also says:

I had a current temple recommend at the time of the disciplinary council. I was not asked to return it before the council, nor asked to return it even after the council’s decision. It expired in March, 2014, six months after excommunication.[39]

Snuffer's recommend would have been automatically deactivated upon his excommunication; this is done electronically, and should not be interpreted to mean—as Snuffer implies by raising it—that he was known to be worthy and no one dared say otherwise.

Snuffer's letter from his stake president (published on his website) makes it clear that he may not wear temple garments or exercise priesthood functions: both prerequisites for entering the temple:

You should not engage in activities which require an exercise of priesthood power. You should not pay tithing or wear the temple garment.[40]


Notes


  1. ↑ Denver Snuffer, “Yesterday,” blog post (11 September 2013), http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/09/yesterday.html
  2. ↑ Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014), 4. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration
  3. ↑ Denver Snuffer, “Schedule,” blog post (22 September 2013), http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/09/schedule.html
  4. ↑ Snuffer to First Presidency, Letter (13 September 2013), reproduced in Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014), 42. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration
  5. ↑ Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014), 7. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration
  6. ↑ Joseph Smith remarks made at Brigham Young Dwelling, Montrose, Iowa Territory (Tuesday, 2 July 1839), recorded in Willard Richards Pocket Companion; cited in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of Joseph Smith, 2nd Edition, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1996), 413. See also Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 278. off-site
  7. ↑ Denver Snuffer, Jr. to his followers,Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014), 7. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration
  8. ↑ Joseph Smith, Jr., Joseph Smith remarks made at Brigham Young Dwelling, Montrose, Iowa Territory (Tuesday, 2 July 1839), recorded in Willard Richards Pocket Companion; cited in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of Joseph Smith, 2nd Edition, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1996), 413. See also Joseph Smith, Jr., Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, selected by Joseph Fielding Smith, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Company, 1976), 278. off-site
  9. ↑ Snuffer to First Presidency, Letter (13 September 2013), reproduced in Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014), 42. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration
  10. ↑ 10.0 10.1 Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014). https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration
  11. ↑ 11.0 11.1 11.2 Snuffer to First Presidency, Letter (13 September 2013), reproduced in Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014). https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration Cite error: Invalid <ref> tag; name "1st_pres" defined multiple times with different content
  12. ↑ 12.00 12.01 12.02 12.03 12.04 12.05 12.06 12.07 12.08 12.09 12.10 12.11 12.12 12.13 12.14 12.15 12.16 Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011).
  13. ↑ M. Truman Hunt to Denver Snuffer, “Notice of Disciplinary Council,” letter (21 August 2013), 1–2. Online at Denver Snuffer, “Don’t call me. (Yes, that means you too!),” from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 23 August 2013, http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/08/dont-call-me-yes-that-means-you-too_23.html
  14. ↑ Denver Snuffer, "Don't Know," from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 9 September 2013, http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/09/dont-know.html
  15. ↑ Truman Hunt, letter to Denver Snuffer (18 September 2013), posted on Denver Snuffer, "No Title," from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 20 September 2013, http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/09/no-title.html
  16. ↑ His post-excommunication writing is little different. We will not review those examples here, since they could not have had a bearing on his excommunication. Readers will note, however, that not much has changed before and after.
  17. ↑ 17.0 17.1 17.2 17.3 17.4 17.5 Denver Snuffer, "Compliance (So Far As Possible)," from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 4 September 2013, http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/09/compliance-so-far-as-possible.html
  18. ↑ Denver Snuffer, “Current Events,” from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 26 August 2013, http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/08/current-events.html
  19. ↑ Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011), 305.
  20. ↑ Thomas Bullock report, discourse of 14 May 1844; cited in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of Joseph Smith, 2nd Edition, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1996), 365, emphasis added.
  21. ↑ Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011), 418.
  22. ↑ Joseph Smith Diary (23 July 1843); cited in Andrew F. Ehat and Lyndon W. Cook, The Words of Joseph Smith: The Contemporary Accounts of the Nauvoo Discourses of Joseph Smith, 2nd Edition, (Salt Lake City: Deseret Book, 1996), 235..
  23. ↑ Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011), 418.
  24. ↑ Dean Jessee (editor), Revelations and Translations: Manuscript Revelation Books, The Joseph Smith Papers, Facsimile ed. (Salt Lake City, Utah: Church Historian’s Press, 2009), 85; see D&C 20꞉38–60.
  25. ↑ [citation needed]
  26. ↑ Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011), 460, compare also page 33.
  27. ↑ Joseph Smith, "For the Times and Seasons. SABBATH SCENE IN NAUVOO; March 20th 1842," Times and Seasons 3 no. 12 (15 April 1842), 752. off-site GospeLink See also Joseph Smith, Jr, Manuscript History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Documentary History). 7 vols. Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 1978, 4:555.
  28. ↑ Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011), 468.
  29. ↑ Joseph Smith, "Baptism," Times and Seasons 3 no. 21 (1 September 1842), 905. off-site GospeLink
  30. ↑ Denver C. Snuffer, Jr., Passing the Heavenly Gift (Salt Lake City: Mill Creek Press, 2011), 468.
  31. ↑ Orson Hyde, "Although Dead, Yet He Speaketh: Joseph Smith’s testimony concerning men being ordained by angels, delivered in the school of the prophets, in Kirtland, Ohio, in the Winter of 1832–3," Millennial Star 8 no. 9 (20 November 1846), 138–139, emphasis added.
  32. ↑ Cited by Tim Malone, "A Few Notes from the Mesa Lecture," latterdaycommentary.blog (9 September 2014), http://latterdaycommentary.com/2014/09/09/a-few-notes-from-the-mesa-lecture/
  33. ↑ Denver Snuffer, “Current Events,” from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 26 August 2013, http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/08/current-events.html
  34. ↑ Cited by Tim Malone, "A Few Notes from the Mesa Lecture," latterdaycommentary.blog (9 September 2014), http://latterdaycommentary.com/2014/09/09/a-few-notes-from-the-mesa-lecture/
  35. ↑ Snuffer to First Presidency, Letter (13 September 2013), 2 reproduced in Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014), 42. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration
  36. ↑ Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014), 7. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration
  37. ↑ M. Truman Hunt to Denver Snuffer, “Notice of Disciplinary Council,” letter (21 August 2013), 1–2. Online at Denver Snuffer, “Don’t call me. (Yes, that means you too!),” from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 23 August 2013, http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/08/dont-call-me-yes-that-means-you-too_23.html
  38. ↑ Snuffer claims that "the Seventy and Elder Christofferson of the Twelve were going to review the book and President Hunt was to “stand down” until he heard further....President Hunt called me in again after he had received further direction from the hierarchy and told me there was church ordered compulsion to withdraw the book from publication or face discipline." [Snuffer to First Presidency, Letter (13 September 2013), 1–2; reproduced in Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014), 41-42. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration] Thus, Snuffer knows that an apostle and others do not wish him to continue to make the claims that he is making, but he does not stop doing so.
  39. ↑ Denver Snuffer, "Preserving The Restoration," Lecture 10, Mesa, Arizona (9 September 2014), 7n9. https://www.scribd.com/doc/239760895/10-Phoenix-Transcript-Preserving-the-Restoration
  40. ↑ Truman Hunt, letter to Denver Snuffer (18 September 2013), posted on Denver Snuffer, "No title," from the desk of Denver Snuffer (blog), 20 September 2013, http://denversnuffer.blogspot.ca/2013/09/no-title.html
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