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Difference between revisions of "Criticism of Mormonism/Books/Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church/Chapter 11"
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===Claims made in "Chapter 11: Plausible Geography"=== | ===Claims made in "Chapter 11: Plausible Geography"=== | ||
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====153==== | ====153==== | ||
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* B.H. Roberts' manuscripts "Book of Mormon Difficulties" and "A Book of Mormon Study" were "clearly intended for publication." | * B.H. Roberts' manuscripts "Book of Mormon Difficulties" and "A Book of Mormon Study" were "clearly intended for publication." | ||
| − | | | + | |response= |
* The author needs to demonstrate this assertion. Many others have not agreed. Roberts' cover letter suggests otherwise. | * The author needs to demonstrate this assertion. Many others have not agreed. Roberts' cover letter suggests otherwise. | ||
| − | * [[B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon"]] {{nw}} | + | * [[Book of Mormon/B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon"]] {{nw}} |
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*Brigham H. Roberts, ''Studies of the Book of Mormon'', 2nd edition, 1992. | *Brigham H. Roberts, ''Studies of the Book of Mormon'', 2nd edition, 1992. | ||
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====153==== | ====153==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
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* Roberts' concluded that a 19th-century origin for the Book of Mormon was "entirely plausible" | * Roberts' concluded that a 19th-century origin for the Book of Mormon was "entirely plausible" | ||
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| − | * {{HistoricalError}}: [[B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon"]] | + | * {{HistoricalError}}: [[Book of Mormon/B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon"]] |
* [[Book of Mormon and View of the Hebrews]] | * [[Book of Mormon and View of the Hebrews]] | ||
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
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*Brigham H. Roberts, ''Studies of the Book of Mormon'', 2nd edition, 1992. | *Brigham H. Roberts, ''Studies of the Book of Mormon'', 2nd edition, 1992. | ||
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====154==== | ====154==== | ||
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* LDS scholars have made a "steady retraction" of claims regarding the scale of the Nephite/Lamanite presence since the 1920's. | * LDS scholars have made a "steady retraction" of claims regarding the scale of the Nephite/Lamanite presence since the 1920's. | ||
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* Authors and leaders have done so. If the author knows this is true, why does he suggest (e.g., [[#xv|p. xv]]) that recent science has been behind the different view of geography and demography? | * Authors and leaders have done so. If the author knows this is true, why does he suggest (e.g., [[#xv|p. xv]]) that recent science has been behind the different view of geography and demography? | ||
| − | * [[ | + | * [[Book_of_Mormon/Geography/Statements|Statements]] by LDS leaders, scholars, and publications. |
| − | * [[Book of Mormon | + | * [[Book of Mormon/Geography/New World/Limited Geography Theory]] |
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*No source given. | *No source given. | ||
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====156==== | ====156==== | ||
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* All Church presidents, General Authorities and "most church members" have believed in a hemispheric Book of Mormon geography | * All Church presidents, General Authorities and "most church members" have believed in a hemispheric Book of Mormon geography | ||
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* {{FalseStatement}}: leaders and members have differed on a point about which the Church has no official doctrine. | * {{FalseStatement}}: leaders and members have differed on a point about which the Church has no official doctrine. | ||
* {{Fundamentalism}} | * {{Fundamentalism}} | ||
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Forced by evidence}} | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Forced by evidence}} | ||
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*{{s||Alma|22|28-32}} | *{{s||Alma|22|28-32}} | ||
*{{s||Alma|50|34}} | *{{s||Alma|50|34}} | ||
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*James E. Talmage, ''Jesus the Christ'', 1915. | *James E. Talmage, ''Jesus the Christ'', 1915. | ||
*1981 introduction to the Book of Mormon. | *1981 introduction to the Book of Mormon. | ||
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====156==== | ====156==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
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* The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites are "the principal ancestors of the American Indians" | * The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites are "the principal ancestors of the American Indians" | ||
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* [[Search for the Truth DVD:DNA#Claim: "The introduction to the Book of Mormon says after thousands of years all were destroyed except the Lamanites and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians." - Pamela Robertson|Are the Lamanites the principal ancestors of the American Indians?]] | * [[Search for the Truth DVD:DNA#Claim: "The introduction to the Book of Mormon says after thousands of years all were destroyed except the Lamanites and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians." - Pamela Robertson|Are the Lamanites the principal ancestors of the American Indians?]] | ||
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
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*1981 introduction to the Book of Mormon. | *1981 introduction to the Book of Mormon. | ||
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====156==== | ====156==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
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* A hemispheric geography most closely aligns with an "uncontrived" reading of the Book of Mormon. | * A hemispheric geography most closely aligns with an "uncontrived" reading of the Book of Mormon. | ||
| − | | | + | |response= |
* {{Absurd}}: the issue of travel distances has yet to be reconciled with a hemispheric reading. | * {{Absurd}}: the issue of travel distances has yet to be reconciled with a hemispheric reading. | ||
| − | * [[Book of Mormon | + | * [[Book of Mormon/Geography/New World/Hemispheric Geography Theory]] |
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*Author's opinion. | *Author's opinion. | ||
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====159==== | ====159==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
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* Moroni makes no mention of traveling from Central America to New York in the Book of Mormon. | * Moroni makes no mention of traveling from Central America to New York in the Book of Mormon. | ||
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* {{SourceDistortion}}: the author cites Sorenson, but does not explain how Sorenson responds to this very issue. | * {{SourceDistortion}}: the author cites Sorenson, but does not explain how Sorenson responds to this very issue. | ||
* The final battle of the Jaredites makes it clear that they did not migrate a long way from the starting point (e.g., Ether was able to observe matters from a cave and return easily to hide.) | * The final battle of the Jaredites makes it clear that they did not migrate a long way from the starting point (e.g., Ether was able to observe matters from a cave and return easily to hide.) | ||
| − | * [[Book of Mormon | + | * [[Book of Mormon/Geography/New World/Limited Geography Theory/Plates to New York|Plates to New York]] |
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*John L. Sorenson, ''An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon'', 1985. | *John L. Sorenson, ''An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon'', 1985. | ||
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====160==== | ====160==== | ||
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* There is no indication that the Book of Mormon people came in contact with others in the land. | * There is no indication that the Book of Mormon people came in contact with others in the land. | ||
| − | | | + | |response= |
* The author cites Sorenson's work, but does nothing to engage his arguments for just such indications. | * The author cites Sorenson's work, but does nothing to engage his arguments for just such indications. | ||
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:No others}} | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:No others}} | ||
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*Brigham H. Roberts, ''Studies of the Book of Mormon'', 2nd edition, 1992. | *Brigham H. Roberts, ''Studies of the Book of Mormon'', 2nd edition, 1992. | ||
*John L. Sorenson, ''An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon'', 1985. | *John L. Sorenson, ''An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon'', 1985. | ||
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====163==== | ====163==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
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* The shrinking of Book of Mormon geographical models corresponds with the growing research showing that ancient Americans came from Asia. | * The shrinking of Book of Mormon geographical models corresponds with the growing research showing that ancient Americans came from Asia. | ||
| − | | | + | |response= |
{{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Forced by evidence}} | {{CriticalWork:Southerton:Losing:Repeat:Forced by evidence}} | ||
* {{DoubleStandard}}: Even if the author's claim was true, why complain? He has argued that Mormons always make their religious beliefs trump science. But, if Mormons respond to science in changing their perceptions, this is seen as a bad thing! | * {{DoubleStandard}}: Even if the author's claim was true, why complain? He has argued that Mormons always make their religious beliefs trump science. But, if Mormons respond to science in changing their perceptions, this is seen as a bad thing! | ||
* [[Book of Mormon geography/New World/Limited Geography Theory|Limited geography theory]] | * [[Book of Mormon geography/New World/Limited Geography Theory|Limited geography theory]] | ||
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*No source given. | *No source given. | ||
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====164==== | ====164==== | ||
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* A limited Book of Mormon setting is at odds with "a straightforward reading" of the Book of Mormon. | * A limited Book of Mormon setting is at odds with "a straightforward reading" of the Book of Mormon. | ||
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* Others have disagreed. The limited model came out of a reading of the text, not out of scientific pressure or apologetic need. | * Others have disagreed. The limited model came out of a reading of the text, not out of scientific pressure or apologetic need. | ||
| − | * [[Book of Mormon | + | * [[Book of Mormon/Geography/New World/Limited Geography Theory|Limited geography theory]] |
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
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*Author's opinion. | *Author's opinion. | ||
| − | + | }} | |
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====164==== | ====164==== | ||
| − | | | + | {{IndexClaim |
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* The limited Book of Mormon setting contradicts D&C 54:8 | * The limited Book of Mormon setting contradicts D&C 54:8 | ||
| − | | | + | |response= |
* By Joseph's day, ''all'' Amerindians were descendants of Lehi. This does not help fix Book of Mormon era geography. | * By Joseph's day, ''all'' Amerindians were descendants of Lehi. This does not help fix Book of Mormon era geography. | ||
* [[Amerindians_as_Lamanites#All_From_Lehi|All from Lehi?]] | * [[Amerindians_as_Lamanites#All_From_Lehi|All from Lehi?]] | ||
| − | * [[Book of Mormon | + | * [[Book of Mormon/Geography/Borders of the Lamanites]] |
| − | | | + | |authorsources= |
*{{s||DC|54|8}} | *{{s||DC|54|8}} | ||
| − | + | }} | |
Revision as of 22:08, 17 February 2010
| Chapter 10 | A FAIR Analysis of: Losing a Lost Tribe: Native Americans, DNA, and the Mormon Church A work by author: Simon G. Southerton
|
Chapter 12 |
Claims made in "Chapter 11: Plausible Geography"
153
Claim
- B.H. Roberts' manuscripts "Book of Mormon Difficulties" and "A Book of Mormon Study" were "clearly intended for publication."
Author's source(s) - Brigham H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, 2nd edition, 1992.
- The author needs to demonstrate this assertion. Many others have not agreed. Roberts' cover letter suggests otherwise.
- Book of Mormon/B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon" [needs work]
153
Claim
- Roberts' concluded that a 19th-century origin for the Book of Mormon was "entirely plausible"
Author's source(s) - Brigham H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, 2nd edition, 1992.
- History unclear or in error: Book of Mormon/B.H. Roberts and "Studies of the Book of Mormon"
- Book of Mormon and View of the Hebrews
154
Claim
- LDS scholars have made a "steady retraction" of claims regarding the scale of the Nephite/Lamanite presence since the 1920's.
Author's source(s) - No source given.
- Authors and leaders have done so. If the author knows this is true, why does he suggest (e.g., p. xv) that recent science has been behind the different view of geography and demography?
- Statements by LDS leaders, scholars, and publications.
- Book of Mormon/Geography/New World/Limited Geography Theory
156
Claim
- All Church presidents, General Authorities and "most church members" have believed in a hemispheric Book of Mormon geography
Author's source(s) - Alma 22꞉28-32
- Alma 50꞉34
- Alma 52꞉9
- Alma 63꞉5
- James E. Talmage, Jesus the Christ, 1915.
- 1981 introduction to the Book of Mormon.
- The author's claim is false: leaders and members have differed on a point about which the Church has no official doctrine.
- Author(s) impose(s) own fundamentalism on the Saints
Logical Fallacy: False Cause—The author assumes that a real or perceived relationship between two events means that one caused the other.
The author consistently argues that LDS scholars or apologists are "adjusting" their view on the Book of Mormon because they are being driven back in a rear-guard action by science. But, in fact, some LDS leaders and scholars have argued for a restricted geography and small numeric contribution of Lehites for over one hundred years.These beliefs were not held because of scientific "pressure," but because of their reading of the Book of Mormon text. In fact, the author admits that this has occurred since at least the 1920s (see p. 154)—long before any pressure from genetics issues. Yet, he continues to make the contradictory claim that the Church's defenders are now "on the ropes" and desperate for a solution.
156
Claim
- The Book of Mormon states that the Lamanites are "the principal ancestors of the American Indians"
Author's source(s) - 1981 introduction to the Book of Mormon.
156
Claim
- A hemispheric geography most closely aligns with an "uncontrived" reading of the Book of Mormon.
Author's source(s) - Author's opinion.
- Absurd claim: the issue of travel distances has yet to be reconciled with a hemispheric reading.
- Book of Mormon/Geography/New World/Hemispheric Geography Theory
159
Claim
- Moroni makes no mention of traveling from Central America to New York in the Book of Mormon.
Author's source(s) - John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, 1985.
- Misrepresentation of source: the author cites Sorenson, but does not explain how Sorenson responds to this very issue.
- The final battle of the Jaredites makes it clear that they did not migrate a long way from the starting point (e.g., Ether was able to observe matters from a cave and return easily to hide.)
- Plates to New York
160
Claim
- There is no indication that the Book of Mormon people came in contact with others in the land.
Author's source(s) - Brigham H. Roberts, Studies of the Book of Mormon, 2nd edition, 1992.
- John L. Sorenson, An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon, 1985.
- The author cites Sorenson's work, but does nothing to engage his arguments for just such indications.
Logical Fallacy: Strawman—The author sets up a weakened or caricatured version of the opponent's argument. The author then proceeds to demolish the weak version of the argument, and claim victory.
Since scholars have long pointed to many textual clues which point to the existence of other non-Lehites in the New World, the author must dispense with such ideas if he is to succeed in portraying the Book of Mormon at odds with science. However, he does not engage the textual evidence that Latter-day Saints have found in abundance—he merely insists there is no evidence there.
163
Claim
- The shrinking of Book of Mormon geographical models corresponds with the growing research showing that ancient Americans came from Asia.
Author's source(s) - No source given.
Logical Fallacy: False Cause—The author assumes that a real or perceived relationship between two events means that one caused the other.
The author consistently argues that LDS scholars or apologists are "adjusting" their view on the Book of Mormon because they are being driven back in a rear-guard action by science. But, in fact, some LDS leaders and scholars have argued for a restricted geography and small numeric contribution of Lehites for over one hundred years.These beliefs were not held because of scientific "pressure," but because of their reading of the Book of Mormon text. In fact, the author admits that this has occurred since at least the 1920s (see p. 154)—long before any pressure from genetics issues. Yet, he continues to make the contradictory claim that the Church's defenders are now "on the ropes" and desperate for a solution.- Double standard: Even if the author's claim was true, why complain? He has argued that Mormons always make their religious beliefs trump science. But, if Mormons respond to science in changing their perceptions, this is seen as a bad thing!
- Limited geography theory
164
Claim
- A limited Book of Mormon setting is at odds with "a straightforward reading" of the Book of Mormon.
Author's source(s) - Author's opinion.
- Others have disagreed. The limited model came out of a reading of the text, not out of scientific pressure or apologetic need.
- Limited geography theory
164
Claim
- The limited Book of Mormon setting contradicts D&C 54:8
Author's source(s) Response
- By Joseph's day, all Amerindians were descendants of Lehi. This does not help fix Book of Mormon era geography.
- All from Lehi?
- Book of Mormon/Geography/Borders of the Lamanites