FAIR is a non-profit organization dedicated to providing well-documented answers to criticisms of the doctrine, practice, and history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Difference between revisions of "User:InProgress/Website reviews/P"
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*Why is it that critics claim that apologists always "admit" things? Was John Lynch previously hiding this fact and was finally forced to "admit" it? John A. Widtsoe "admitted" the same thing decades ago—this is not a secret. | *Why is it that critics claim that apologists always "admit" things? Was John Lynch previously hiding this fact and was finally forced to "admit" it? John A. Widtsoe "admitted" the same thing decades ago—this is not a secret. | ||
*Did MormonThink use the word "admit" purposely? Come on...admit it. | *Did MormonThink use the word "admit" purposely? Come on...admit it. | ||
| − | |quote=* "The theory that plural marriage was a consequence of a surplus of female Church members fails from lack of evidence." - John A. Widtsoe, ''Evidences and Reconciliations'' ( | + | |quote=* "The theory that plural marriage was a consequence of a surplus of female Church members fails from lack of evidence." - John A. Widtsoe, ''Evidences and Reconciliations'' (1943), p. 390. |
}} | }} | ||
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*Just because some members have come up with uninformed opinions about why plural marriage was practiced, is this the Church's fault? The Church doesn't include any of those reasons in its manuals. | *Just because some members have come up with uninformed opinions about why plural marriage was practiced, is this the Church's fault? The Church doesn't include any of those reasons in its manuals. | ||
|quote= | |quote= | ||
| − | * | + | * "The most common of these conjectures is that the Church, through plural marriage, sought to provide husbands for its large surplus of female members. The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more female than male members in the Church, is not supported by existing evidence." - John A. Widtsoe, ''Evidences and Reconciliations'' (1943), p. 390. |
}} | }} | ||
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*Why doesn't MormonThink point these things out? | *Why doesn't MormonThink point these things out? | ||
|quote= | |quote= | ||
| − | * "Another conjecture is that the people were few in number and that the Church, desiring greater numbers, permitted the practice so that a phenomenal increase in population could be attained. This is not defensible, since there was no surplus of women." - John A. Widtsoe, ''Evidences and Reconciliations'' ( | + | * "Another conjecture is that the people were few in number and that the Church, desiring greater numbers, permitted the practice so that a phenomenal increase in population could be attained. This is not defensible, since there was no surplus of women." - John A. Widtsoe, ''Evidences and Reconciliations'' (1943), p. 390. |
}} | }} | ||
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Her great trial came when the prophet revealed to Emma that '''they would be required to live the ancient law of Abraham—plural marriage'''. Emma suffered deeply hurt feelings because of it. While she agreed with this doctrine at times, at other times she opposed it. Years later, Emma is purported to have denied that any such '''doctrine was ever introduced by her husband'''. <br>—Gracia N. Jones, “My Great-Great-Grandmother, Emma Hale Smith,” ''Ensign'', Aug 1992, 30 {{link|url=http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=4e2694bf3938b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD}} {{ea}} | Her great trial came when the prophet revealed to Emma that '''they would be required to live the ancient law of Abraham—plural marriage'''. Emma suffered deeply hurt feelings because of it. While she agreed with this doctrine at times, at other times she opposed it. Years later, Emma is purported to have denied that any such '''doctrine was ever introduced by her husband'''. <br>—Gracia N. Jones, “My Great-Great-Grandmother, Emma Hale Smith,” ''Ensign'', Aug 1992, 30 {{link|url=http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=4e2694bf3938b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD}} {{ea}} | ||
</blockquote> | </blockquote> | ||
| + | * John A. Widtsoe: | ||
| + | <blockquote> | ||
| + | ...2. A number of men, who in their lives showed themselves honest, have testified that they actually performed the ceremonies that united Joseph Smith to plural wives. Among these were Joseph B. Noble, Hyrum Smith, James Adams, Newell K. Whitney, Willard Richards, and others. Several of these men lived long after the Prophet's death and always declared that they officiated in marrying the Prophet to a plural wife, giving place, date, and the witnesses present. | ||
| + | |||
| + | 3. Many of the women who were thus sealed to Joseph Smith lived long after his death. They declared that they lived with the Prophet as husband and wives. These women were of unblemished character, gentle and lovely in their lives who spoke with loving respect of their martyr husband. They substantiated in detail the statements of those who performed the ceremonies.... - John A. Widtsoe, ''Evidences and Reconciliations'' (1943). | ||
}} | }} | ||
Revision as of 15:06, 24 April 2012
A FAIR Analysis of "Polygamy"
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
That one of the reasons most commonly given in church to justify polygamy is: There were more women than men in the 1800s and polygamy provided a way for women, particularly widows to have the benefits of a husband....Brother [John] Lynch admits to John Dehlin that many commonly-held beliefs of the members are untrue - specifically mentioned are that there were NOT more women than men in the Church when they practiced polygamy.
FairMormon commentary
- Just because some members have come up with uninformed opinions about why plural marriage was practiced, is this the Church's fault? The Church doesn't include any of those reasons in its manuals. Why does Elder John A. Widtsoe specifically deny such explanations in the Church's official magazine?
- Why doesn't MormonThink tell us about this, instead of talking vaguely about what is "commonly given in church"?
- In Utah, there were always more women worthy of temple marriage than there were men. So, plural marriage might not increase the number of children born, but it could very easily increase the number of children born to active families with dedicated parents. Given a choice between not marrying at all, or marrying a man who was not as active or dedicated, do you think it surprising that some dedicated LDS women preferred a plural relationship with a believing, temple-worthy man?
- Why is it that critics claim that apologists always "admit" things? Was John Lynch previously hiding this fact and was finally forced to "admit" it? John A. Widtsoe "admitted" the same thing decades ago—this is not a secret.
- Did MormonThink use the word "admit" purposely? Come on...admit it.
Quotes to consider
- "The theory that plural marriage was a consequence of a surplus of female Church members fails from lack of evidence." - John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations (1943), p. 390.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
That one of the reasons most commonly given in church to justify polygamy is: Polygamy was not practiced until after the Saints started immigrating to Utah, and done so that women, whose husbands had died from the exertions of the trek, could be taken care of.
FairMormon commentary
- Just because some members have come up with uninformed opinions about why plural marriage was practiced, is this the Church's fault? The Church doesn't include any of those reasons in its manuals.
Quotes to consider
- "The most common of these conjectures is that the Church, through plural marriage, sought to provide husbands for its large surplus of female members. The implied assumption in this theory, that there have been more female than male members in the Church, is not supported by existing evidence." - John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations (1943), p. 390.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
That one of the reasons most commonly given in church to justify polygamy is: Polygamy was not illegal in the 1800s and was not in violation of U.S. law or against the 12th article of faith, which supports obeying the laws of the land.
FairMormon commentary
- Just because some members have come up with uninformed opinions about plural marriage, is this the Church's fault? The Church doesn't include any of these claims in its manuals.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
That one of the reasons most commonly given in church to justify polygamy is: Polygamy was an acceptable way to rapidly increase the Church membership....This doesn't make any sense because a group of women can have far more children if they each have their own husband instead of sharing one man. For example Brigham Young reportedly had 55 children by some 29 child-bearing capable wives but had those women had their own husbands they may have had 150 or more children in total.
FairMormon commentary
- Just because some members have come up with uninformed opinions about why plural marriage was practiced, is this the Church's fault? The Church doesn't include any of those reasons in its manuals.
- So, does that mean that there were 29 men without wives? It seems like there would be an awful lot of single males since all of the women were married to a few polygamous men.
- Why does MormonThink use the example of Brigham Young, who is the most extreme example available? He had more plural marriages than anyone else, ever.
- Why doesn't MormonThink tell us that 66% of all polygamists had only two wives? Or that 87% had no more than 3? Or that at most 15-20% of LDS families ever practiced plural marriage? Do you think they might being trying to create an inaccurate picture here?
- How many of you are descendants of polygamists? If there had been no polygamy, would you be here?
- In Utah, there were always more women worthy of temple marriage than there were men. So, plural marriage might not increase the number of children born, but it could very easily increase the number of children born to active families with dedicated parents. Given a choice between not marrying at all, or marrying a man who was not as active or dedicated, do you think it surprising that some dedicated LDS women preferred a plural relationship with a believing, temple-worthy man?
- Why doesn't MormonThink point these things out?
Quotes to consider
- "Another conjecture is that the people were few in number and that the Church, desiring greater numbers, permitted the practice so that a phenomenal increase in population could be attained. This is not defensible, since there was no surplus of women." - John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations (1943), p. 390.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Polygamy was always illegal whenever and wherever the Mormons practiced it. It was even illegal in Canada and Mexico as they only recognize marriages that are legal in the person's home country.
Author's source(s)
- The Illinois Anti-bigamy Law enacted February 12th, 1833
- The 1862 federal Morrill Act
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The first edition of the Doctrine and Covenants (1835) included a section denying any practice of polygamy.
FairMormon commentary
- Yes, it's true.
Additional information
- 1835 Doctrine and Covenants denies polygamy—The 1835 edition of the D&C contained a statement of marriage which denied the practice of polygamy. Since this was published during Joseph Smith's lifetime, why might the prophet have allowed it to be published if he was actually practicing polygamy at that time? (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The Sunday School lesson manuals, priesthood manuals, seminary books, etc almost never mention Joseph's polygamy. There are some references to the other prophet's plural marriages but not for Joseph.
FairMormon commentary
- Saying "almost never" is a slippery statement--any example of it being mentioned simply lets MormonThink claim that it's an exception to the rule. Why do you suppose that is? How much mention is "enough"?
- The Church certainly doesn't teach it or emphasize plural marriage today, because it is not practiced.
Quotes to consider
- How about Latter-day Saint scriptures? Does that count? D&C 132 on plural marriage reads, in part:
51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to prove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice. 52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, receive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God. (DC 132꞉51-52)
- How can this hide Joseph's plural marriages, since it speaks of those "that have been given unto my servant Joseph"? Are members told to study their scriptures but not to read D&C 132?
- How about Priesthood/Relief Society Manual Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith?
This book deals with teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith that have application to our day....This book also does not discuss plural marriage. The doctrines and principles relating to plural marriage were revealed to Joseph Smith as early as 1831. The Prophet taught the doctrine of plural marriage, and a number of such marriages were performed during his lifetime. (The 2008-2009 lesson manual Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, (2007), pages vii–xiii)
- How about the Ensign "admitting" that Joseph had plural wives? How did this slip through?
Her great trial came when the prophet revealed to Emma that they would be required to live the ancient law of Abraham—plural marriage. Emma suffered deeply hurt feelings because of it. While she agreed with this doctrine at times, at other times she opposed it. Years later, Emma is purported to have denied that any such doctrine was ever introduced by her husband.
—Gracia N. Jones, “My Great-Great-Grandmother, Emma Hale Smith,” Ensign, Aug 1992, 30 off-site (emphasis added)
- John A. Widtsoe:
...2. A number of men, who in their lives showed themselves honest, have testified that they actually performed the ceremonies that united Joseph Smith to plural wives. Among these were Joseph B. Noble, Hyrum Smith, James Adams, Newell K. Whitney, Willard Richards, and others. Several of these men lived long after the Prophet's death and always declared that they officiated in marrying the Prophet to a plural wife, giving place, date, and the witnesses present.
3. Many of the women who were thus sealed to Joseph Smith lived long after his death. They declared that they lived with the Prophet as husband and wives. These women were of unblemished character, gentle and lovely in their lives who spoke with loving respect of their martyr husband. They substantiated in detail the statements of those who performed the ceremonies.... - John A. Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations (1943).
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