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Difference between revisions of "User:InProgress/Website reviews/B"
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|summary=Critics claim that Book of Mormon references to Nephite coins is an anachronism, as coins were not used either in ancient America or Israel during Lehi's day. However, the word "coins" was only added to the chapter heading of Alma 11 much later, and the text of the Book of Mormon itself does not mention coins. The pieces of gold and silver described in Alma 11:1-20 are not coins, but a surprisingly sophisticated system of weights and measures that is entirely consistent with Mesoamerican proto-monetary practices. | |summary=Critics claim that Book of Mormon references to Nephite coins is an anachronism, as coins were not used either in ancient America or Israel during Lehi's day. However, the word "coins" was only added to the chapter heading of Alma 11 much later, and the text of the Book of Mormon itself does not mention coins. The pieces of gold and silver described in Alma 11:1-20 are not coins, but a surprisingly sophisticated system of weights and measures that is entirely consistent with Mesoamerican proto-monetary practices. | ||
| + | }} | ||
| + | |||
| + | ==== ==== | ||
| + | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim | ||
| + | |claim=Critic's Response: Notice how FAIR avoids at all costs mentioning the following verses from the BOM concerning Lehi's trip [emphasis added]: | ||
| + | http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/16/10,16,26-28,30#10 | ||
| + | 10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one POINTED THE WAY WITHER WE SHOULD GO INTO THE WILDERNESS. | ||
| + | <br><br> | ||
| + | 30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the DIRECTIONS which were given upon the ball. | ||
| + | <br>Now followed by the verse they do mention: | ||
| + | 38 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the thing which our fathers call a ball, or DIRECTOR—or our fathers called it Liahona, which is, being interpreted, a COMPASS; and the Lord prepared it. | ||
| + | |think= | ||
| + | *{{antispeak|shrill}} | ||
| + | *Notice how the FAIR article actually ''leads off'' with a quotation of 1 Nephi 16: 10, 30. Notice how the critic sloppily includes verse 38 as part of 1 Nephi when it is actually a quote of Alma 37:38. | ||
| + | *Notice how the verse that FAIR "did mention" has the words "direction" and "compass" just like the verses that FAIR is supposed to have avoided mentioning "at all costs." | ||
| + | *Notice that when critics become shrill, that they also become more inaccurate. | ||
| + | |quote= | ||
| + | }} | ||
| + | |||
| + | ==== ==== | ||
| + | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim | ||
| + | |claim= | ||
| + | Critic's Response: The Book of Mormon explicitly states that the so-called "Liahona", was a DIRECTOR, it was certainly used by Lehi's party to DIRECT them in the wilderness, and Alma the younger even made more clarification of its nature by calling it a DIRECTOR and COMPASS -- this is an anachronism because the COMPASS which DIRECTED one's course wasn't invented yet for many centuries. | ||
| + | |think= | ||
}} | }} | ||
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{{MormonThinkIndexClaim | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim | ||
|claim= | |claim= | ||
| + | Leave it up to ' FAIRLDS to twist, take things out of context, use anything but the actual text of the Book of Mormon to make definitions, avoid the full context as much as possible, and give me yet another feeling like I've been lied to by people who believe it's for my own good to just take them at face value and stop thinking. | ||
| + | Also FAIR grasps at straws by stating “In every case, it is clear that, at least in Jacobean England, the word was regularly treated as meaning either a round object, or something which moved in a curved fashion. “ We do not live in Jacobean England nor did Joseph Smith nor the Nephites. | ||
|think= | |think= | ||
| − | | | + | *Of course, we have included ''plenty'' of quotes from the Book of Mormon itself. |
| + | *By noting the fact that we do not live in "Jacobean England nor did Joseph Smith nor the Nephites," we can see that this critic has a firm grasp of the obvious. | ||
| + | }} | ||
| + | |||
| + | |||
| + | ==== ==== | ||
| + | {{MormonThinkIndexClaim | ||
| + | |claim= | ||
| + | The FAIR apologists are the same people that make "horse" mean "tapir" and "steel" somehow they make into wooden clubs with obsidian (volcanic glass) chunks all stuck into it called "macahuitl", and Nephite coinage means anything other than gold & silver monetary units, and Lehi & company conquered another race and interbred with them WITHOUT BEING MENTIONED IN ThE BOOK OF MORMON AT ALL in a ham-fisted attempt to cloud and detract from the real problem regarding Native American DNA, and there's a second Hill Cumorah on the grassy knoll.....and a whole litany of things that should be PLAIN AND PRECIOUS from the MOST CORRECT BOOK on EARTH. | ||
| + | |think= | ||
| + | *{{antispeak|shrill}} | ||
}} | }} | ||
Revision as of 09:49, 2 May 2012
- REDIRECTTemplate:Test3
| A FAIR Analysis of: MormonThink A work by author: Anonymous
|
A FAIR Analysis of MormonThink page "Book of Mormon Difficulties—Book of Mormon Animals"
FAIRMORMON'S VIEW OF THE CRITICS' CONCLUSIONS
The positions that the MormonThink article "Book of Mormon Difficulties—Book of Mormon Animals" appears to take are the following:
FAIRMORMON'S RESPONSE AND SUPPORTING DATA
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Critic's Rebuttal: The first apologist argument that they did not find archeological evidence of lions in Palestine until very recently is not applicable since pictographic and literary evidence of horses in the New World (outside of the Book of Mormon) is unknown. There were writings and drawings of lions in Palestine and horses used by the Huns yet there are no writings or drawings of any modern-day horses by the natives of the Americas. The Native Americans had absolutely no knowledge of horses until Columbus and the Spaniards introduced them to the Old World.
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The second apologist argument that the horses described in the BOM were really deer or tapirs is absolutely ridiculous. Joseph Smith knew what a horse was and certainly the 'most correct book on earth' wouldn't mistranslate deer for horse 14 times. Can you imagine a tapir pulling the chariots as described in the Book of Mormon? Joseph managed to come up with proper nouns like Curelom and Cumom and Ziff, Senine...but he couldn't get the real name for whatever he substituted horse for?
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Our Thoughts: As children, we were all taught in American History classes about the profound impact that horses had on the Indians once they were introduced to the New World by the Europeans. We have a hard time believing that all the history books, scientists, Indian records, etc. are all wrong about something that was so important to the Native Americans. If the ancient inhabitants of the Americas really had the horse as described in the BOM, we can't conceive of how or why they would let this most useful of all animals disappear and of course leave absolutely no trace of its existence.
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Interesting note: Solomon Spalding, in his fictional piece Manuscript Story, mentions horses in connection with the inhabitants of the New World. So perhaps it's no wonder that the author(s) of the BOM might make the same mistake.
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Occasionally LDS members and even LDS apologists like Daniel Peterson talk of some evidence found of modern-day horses in America, but these are well-known hoaxes such as the Spencer Lake Hoax when an archeological student buried a horse skull at an archeological dig. FAIR actually made a video in which they cite the Spencer Lake horse as evidence of horses in BOM times. Embarrassingly, FAIR has now put this disclaimer about their video:
FAIR: Please note that reference is made to a potential pre-Columbian horse, the so-called "Spencer Lake," horse skull. This has now been determined to have been a fraud or hoax, and should not be considered evidence for the Book of Mormon account.
Equally curious is why this drawing isn't used by the apologists at FAIR and FARMS. They likely know that the macaw explanation is accepted by serious archeologists (such as Michael Coe). They may also suspect it is not credible like the numerous ancient American horse hoaxes that Daniel Peterson of FARMS use to endorse.
FairMormon commentary
- FAIR corrected an error—why is this supposed to be "embarrassing?" Wouldn't it be embarrassing if they failed to correct the error?
- The Spencer Lake hoax is mentioned as a single example. Where are these other "numerous ancient American horse hoaxes" that Daniel Peterson is said to have endorsed? Citations please?
- Statements prefaced by the words "they are likely to know" or "they may also suspect" are not evidence—they are conjecture. Why is it "curious" that FAIR or the Maxwell Institute do no wish to use ambiguous evidence? Or that when something is clearly identified as a hoax, that they issue a correction? Isn't this what is supposed to happen?
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
It's very interesting that apologist Daniel Peterson of FARMS says that Alma 11, which describes Nephite coinage, is almost certainly wrong.
FairMormon commentary
- Daniel Peterson has never claimed that a chapter in the Book of Mormon is "wrong."
- What LDS scholars claim is "wrong" is the chapter heading for Alma 11, which specifically mentions the word "coins." That chapter heading is not part of the actual Book of Mormon text, and was added in the 20th-century. The original Book of Mormon did not contain the word "coins," and the chapter itself describes measures of various metals that were used as currency.
Additional information
- Coins—Critics claim that Book of Mormon references to Nephite coins is an anachronism, as coins were not used either in ancient America or Israel during Lehi's day. However, the word "coins" was only added to the chapter heading of Alma 11 much later, and the text of the Book of Mormon itself does not mention coins. The pieces of gold and silver described in Alma 11:1-20 are not coins, but a surprisingly sophisticated system of weights and measures that is entirely consistent with Mesoamerican proto-monetary practices. (Link)
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Critic's Response: Notice how FAIR avoids at all costs mentioning the following verses from the BOM concerning Lehi's trip [emphasis added]:
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_ne/16/10,16,26-28,30#10
10 And it came to pass that as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round ball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one POINTED THE WAY WITHER WE SHOULD GO INTO THE WILDERNESS.
30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the DIRECTIONS which were given upon the ball.
Now followed by the verse they do mention:
38 And now, my son, I have somewhat to say concerning the thing which our fathers call a ball, or DIRECTOR—or our fathers called it Liahona, which is, being interpreted, a COMPASS; and the Lord prepared it.
FairMormon commentary
- Shrillness makes you appear silly and inaccurate —When critics become shrill, they sacrifice accuracy and begin making silly sarcastic claims.
- Notice how the FAIR article actually leads off with a quotation of 1 Nephi 16: 10, 30. Notice how the critic sloppily includes verse 38 as part of 1 Nephi when it is actually a quote of Alma 37:38.
- Notice how the verse that FAIR "did mention" has the words "direction" and "compass" just like the verses that FAIR is supposed to have avoided mentioning "at all costs."
- Notice that when critics become shrill, that they also become more inaccurate.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Critic's Response: The Book of Mormon explicitly states that the so-called "Liahona", was a DIRECTOR, it was certainly used by Lehi's party to DIRECT them in the wilderness, and Alma the younger even made more clarification of its nature by calling it a DIRECTOR and COMPASS -- this is an anachronism because the COMPASS which DIRECTED one's course wasn't invented yet for many centuries.
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
Leave it up to ' FAIRLDS to twist, take things out of context, use anything but the actual text of the Book of Mormon to make definitions, avoid the full context as much as possible, and give me yet another feeling like I've been lied to by people who believe it's for my own good to just take them at face value and stop thinking.
Also FAIR grasps at straws by stating “In every case, it is clear that, at least in Jacobean England, the word was regularly treated as meaning either a round object, or something which moved in a curved fashion. “ We do not live in Jacobean England nor did Joseph Smith nor the Nephites.
FairMormon commentary
- Of course, we have included plenty of quotes from the Book of Mormon itself.
- By noting the fact that we do not live in "Jacobean England nor did Joseph Smith nor the Nephites," we can see that this critic has a firm grasp of the obvious.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
The FAIR apologists are the same people that make "horse" mean "tapir" and "steel" somehow they make into wooden clubs with obsidian (volcanic glass) chunks all stuck into it called "macahuitl", and Nephite coinage means anything other than gold & silver monetary units, and Lehi & company conquered another race and interbred with them WITHOUT BEING MENTIONED IN ThE BOOK OF MORMON AT ALL in a ham-fisted attempt to cloud and detract from the real problem regarding Native American DNA, and there's a second Hill Cumorah on the grassy knoll.....and a whole litany of things that should be PLAIN AND PRECIOUS from the MOST CORRECT BOOK on EARTH.
FairMormon commentary
- Shrillness makes you appear silly and inaccurate —When critics become shrill, they sacrifice accuracy and begin making silly sarcastic claims.
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
FairMormon commentary
On their old website, MormonThink claims...
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